Who doesn't have an AR15?

[LoonWulf]

My Ar is a hunting and mid range target/plinking rifle.
6.5Grendel, and .458 Socom. Ive built 4 uppers in .223 but just never really liked them. I do like the other rounds more, ive built another upper in 6.5G, and a couple in 300aac.

Im not a huge fan of pistol griped rifles, so while ill have my .458, ill probably get rid of my 6.5 upper to build up a Grendel bolt gun.
Lacking a real interest in Military firearms it took me finding the .458 to want an AR. In fact I built an Ar for my father a few years before ever considering one for myself. If there was an option for a more sporter shaped firearm in .458 I probably still wouldnt own one.

 

[I6turbo]

I have one, the 1971 model Colt that I've owned since about 1984. Super light and very reliable as long as it's not too ditry. Also have the Colt 3X scope (not shown).

 

[stoky]

great lookin A5 there, 16turbo

 

[hdbiker]

I went threw Basic Training with the old MI, in AIT we were issued M14's.So even today I not against them but have no interest in them.I do shoot a Remington 700 SPS Target .223 though. Scary accurate. hdbiker

 

[I6turbo]

great lookin A5 there, 16turbo

Thanks. I have a bunch of guns but this A5 is high on my list of favorites. It is FUN to use and shoot and makes me want to go out and find something to shoot at, clay or other targets, doves, blackbirds, or whatever. Here's a shot with the SP-1 Carbine stock extended (still a pretty compact gun in hand), which shows how compact the A5 is. I made these photos a few years back when I considered these my prospective go-to HD guns. I no longer own the Beretta or the 1911, but have other handguns now. Given the choice in a HD situation (God please forbid), I'd rather be armed with the A5 than any of the others, by a WIDE margin.

 

[armoredman]

The people that do not have one usually wind up getting one, from my observations anyway.

Only if I win the lottery and get bored. That goes for at least 4 people I can think of right off the bat.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I've owned a couple. A Bushmaster ES-15 and a DPMS, wasn't all that impressed. My need for HD firepower is filled by M1 carbine, Mini-14, Mini-30 and M1 Garand and 2 pump action shotguns. I'm covered.

 

[1stmarine]

If one likes an auto-loading rifle and also likes extreme accuracy then one will like the AR.
Nothing else comes close for that kind of goal.
The design directives are so logical that have migrated to the bolt action too. (tube gun design).
The versatility of the modular design is also a very good thing.
Other modular systems are also versatile but they are not popular and can be very expensive.
In terms of aftermarket one the AR has unparalleled support and alternatives.

 

[1stmarine]

Also anyone who has any doubts about the robustness of design and have this
idea that the inpigment system makes them "inferior" they should read this piece
coming from professionals who shoot millions of rounds with the ARs.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

 

[rskent]

At least one.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

I have had one, but just couldn't get used to it. I love wood and steel, and maybe its just me, but I couldn't stand the "twang" from the buffer spring in the stock every time I shot it. I have a very nice sks now, and couldn't be happier.

 

[CopperFouling]

Also anyone who has any doubts about the robustness of design and have this
idea that the inpigment system makes them "inferior" they should read this piece
coming from professionals who shoot millions of rounds with the ARs.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

That is a really interesting read. Thanks for sharing, 1stmarine.

 

[md7]

Also anyone who has any doubts about the robustness of design and have this
idea that the inpigment system makes them "inferior" they should read this piece
coming from professionals who shoot millions of rounds with the ARs.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

Articles like this one and filthy 14 (RIP, Pat Rogers) are great examples of what an AR can withstand.

To each his own, but when I consider the value, aftermarket support, parts availability, etc. that the AR enjoys in light of this type performance...... That has appeal for me, and was a strong factor in my choosing an AR for a defensive/general purpose rifle.

 

[armoredman]

Also anyone who has any doubts about the robustness of design and have this
idea that the inpigment system makes them "inferior" they should read this piece
coming from professionals who shoot millions of rounds with the ARs.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

I see all the issues they have with the various rifles, ad it reminds me of when I worked an indoor rental range. We weren't high speed/low drag like these guys, and we actualy let customers shoot their very own guns ad ammo on the lanes they rented, but our rental guns got BEATEN...which is why we lost 5 out of six HK USPs in less than a year, a SIG P-230 in six months and the Glock 17...at approximately 100,000 + rounds when the slide snapped. So, yeah I get it but I also read the whole article, (NOT the entire attached 17 page one, but the linked article), and it seems isn't the perfection of the design, it's the execution, as there are good, bad and indifferent AR variants. He stated there are some guns that failed same day, but others have 200,000 rounds downrange...but they aren't the same rifles, as everything inside has been replaced. If I replace the engine, driveline, wheels, gas tank, wiring harness and steering wheel in my vehicle, I can't claim it's been perfect at the end of 200,000 miles.
What I see is they say that about 20,000 rounds they see issues that call for parts replacement. I can buy that. BTW, who cleans guns with Simple Green? That's odd - I have never used a sonic cleaner system, so is that normal? Genuinely curious.
I don't doubt the GOOD AR rifles will last way beyond most people like myself will ever shoot them. I've had my BREN 805 for well over a year and I think I have maybe 1,000 rounds through it so far, so when they do say 20,000 rounds before parts replacement, that equals pretty darn good to me - I doubt I would live long enough to have to replace anything except the ammo.

 

[armoredman]

Follow up that post - if one was to look for an AR style rifle that would last 20,000 rounds with layman maintenance and skill, which one would the AR gurus here recommend? Serious question.

 

[md7]

Follow up that post - if one was to look for an AR style rifle that would last 20,000 rounds with layman maintenance and skill, which one would the AR gurus here recommend? Serious question.

Great couple of posts, armored man.

No guru, but I generally recommend BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, etc. The materials, assembly, QC, and testing protocol they follow is comforting to me, especially if I want to push it hard or use it for HD.

That's my opinion.

 

[BSA1]

Thanks. I have a bunch of guns but this A5 is high on my list of favorites. It is FUN to use and shoot and makes me want to go out and find something to shoot at, clay or other targets, doves, blackbirds, or whatever. Here's a shot with the SP-1 Carbine stock extended (still a pretty compact gun in hand), which shows how compact the A5 is. I made these photos a few years back when I considered these my prospective go-to HD guns. I no longer own the Beretta or the 1911, but have other handguns now. Given the choice in a HD situation (God please forbid), I'd rather be armed with the A5 than any of the others, by a WIDE margin.

That is a very well thought out self-defense collection of guns.

My go to short barrel shotgun at the moment is a Norinco 97 12 ga. A friend talked me into buying it back when I was shooting a lot Cowboy Action Matches. I never have used it for CAS but it fills the need for a home defense shotgun well.

My preferred short barrel shotgun should be my Remington 870. However I mucked it up a few years ago when I decided I needed a "tactical' home defense shotgun by adding a adjustable buttstock with pistol grip, different forearm and extended magazine tube.

I misplace my tool for removing the forearm so I have not changed it back to real wood stock and forearm. I keep thinking I will find the tool after I buy another one.

 

[1stmarine]

What I see is they say that about 20,000 rounds they see issues that call for parts replacement. I can buy that. BTW, who cleans guns with Simple Green? That's odd - I have never used a sonic cleaner system, so is that normal? Genuinely curious.
I don't doubt the GOOD AR rifles will last way beyond most people like myself will ever shoot them. I've had my BREN 805 for well over a year and I think I have maybe 1,000 rounds through it so far, so when they do say 20,000 rounds before parts replacement, that equals pretty darn good to me - I doubt I would live long enough to have to replace anything except the ammo.

Good points.

The article simply confirms a few things we already knew:
- Some of these clubs shoot more rounds than anybody else. Their business is trigger time.
- They are very methodical about their records and cost management.
- The importance of preventive maintenance to have a reliable firearm.
- How well the AR performs when properly maintained and how easy is to service it whether it is preventive service or repairs and w/o the need of a professional gunsmith.

According to some independent tests barrels will not last as long with cheap steel eastern ammo because of the much harder metal jacket that chews up the rifling faster.
They use quality ammo due to cleaning-less and reliability and I am sure they get good deals when they buy bulk with the big volume they shoot.

And BTW simple green is a awesome inexpensive way to clean parts and brass. Since it is acidic like white vinegar, a baking soda clearing bath will neutralize the acid.
These and other simple methods have been used for decades and work well whether one has a sonic cleaner or a simple container for a bath. Obviously sonic cleaning is amazing and it is fast.

 

[salt&battery]

who doesn't have an AR 15?.... Victor Kalashnikov, Mikhail Kalashnikov's son

 

[CopperFouling]

Follow up that post - if one was to look for an AR style rifle that would last 20,000 rounds with layman maintenance and skill, which one would the AR gurus here recommend? Serious question.

According to that epic thread on the other forum, Colt, Daniel Defense, and PSA were the ones that were the most reliable. In sum, though, the thread basically underscores the fact that firearms are machines, and all machines fail at some point or another.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I have Colt 6920 I bought as a political statement several years ago. I get it out about once or twice a year for some plinking, I trust it to work if I really need it and have no plans to get rid of it.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

A number of friends and family members have them, but I just don't see the appeal. Accuracy of the less expensive ARs is marginal and getting an accurate one is much more expensive than bolt guns or even pumps. For home defense rifles, there is a Rem 7600 pump and a Marlin 30-30 in the safe. I've done some tactical training with the 30-30 to obtain proficiency with it in a defensive role. The 7600 pump is also a much more natural fit for rapid accuracy.

I've considered ARs for the various tactical rifle type contests where feeding a .30 cal is just too expensive or the smaller magazines of the pump and lever action are a disadvantage in the game. If I start with an AR under $500, I'm probably looking at significant additional costs to bring it up to the accuracy level I'd like as well as sufficient customization to resolve fit and handling issues. I may or may not do it eventually. The pistol caliber carbines are more interesting in that role, cheaper to feed, and more ergonomic in my hands. (I'm a big guy. ARs just seem to small and resolving the fit issues requires a lot of customization.)

 

[Hanzo581]

I know there's an accuracy thread already going, but what kind of accuracy are you seeking that can't be found in a quality brand AR?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I know there's an accuracy thread already going, but what kind of accuracy are you seeking that can't be found in a quality brand AR?

It depends on the application. No doubt, MOA accuracy can be had in ARs, but not in the cheap ones. I've seen lots of < $500 bolt guns in .223 shoot sub-MOA. I've never seen it (personally) in a cheap AR. By the time you put a heavy barrel on most ARs, it is unbalanced: OK for benchrest and bipod work, but not really right for the running and gunning tactical games. The inexpensive ARs I've seen my friends shoot are 4-8 MOA deals with most ammo. Tuned hand loads or factory match loads found by trial and error can sometimes reduce group sizes to 2 MOA but even that does not seem to be consistent from one range trip to the next.

But the ergonomics are also problematic. It is no problem for a big guy like me to shoot an AR to it's full accuracy potential from a benchrest or prone, but the balance, weight, and fit of them does not work well from the other positions if there is any time pressure at all. I'm sure all that can be fixed with sufficient customization, but by the time you fix the inherent accuracy and the fit, you're talking about a lot more than the $399 mentioned in the original post.

 

[LoonWulf]

It depends on the application. No doubt, MOA accuracy can be had in ARs, but not in the cheap ones. I've seen lots of < $500 bolt guns in .223 shoot sub-MOA. I've never seen it (personally) in a cheap AR. By the time you put a heavy barrel on most ARs, it is unbalanced: OK for benchrest and bipod work, but not really right for the running and gunning tactical games. The inexpensive ARs I've seen my friends shoot are 4-8 MOA deals with most ammo. Tuned hand loads or factory match loads found by trial and error can sometimes reduce group sizes to 2 MOA but even that does not seem to be consistent from one range trip to the next.

But the ergonomics are also problematic. It is no problem for a big guy like me to shoot an AR to it's full accuracy potential from a benchrest or prone, but the balance, weight, and fit of them does not work well from the other positions if there is any time pressure at all. I'm sure all that can be fixed with sufficient customization, but by the time you fix the inherent accuracy and the fit, you're talking about a lot more than the $399 mentioned in the original post.

I dont have any experience with over the counter complete ARs besides what ive shot for friends, or folks at the range. My own builds I expect sub 2moa from them as a matter of course, my worst upper was a scrap parts build that shot that well. My cobbled together 6.5G shoots 100grn balistics wonderfully, and did sub 2moa (i wanna say 1.5 but i never measured the groups) with Hornady factor ammo and 123grn handloads.

My one factory upper is a .458socom from Radical, that puts a mags worth of 300grn nosler ballistics into 2" at 100yds with a 5x scope.