Who here has one or more cowboy gun originals in minty condition?

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One could claim many different firearms were 'the gun that won the west'.

As I believe I said earlier, The Gun That Won The West was an advertising slogan made up by Winchester to increase sales of the Model 1873 Winchester. Nothing more than an advertising slogan.

Regarding the 'big single shots' of the day, they all fired cartridges much more powerful than the Henry and early Winchesters. This is because in 1873 the mechanism of a repeater was not strong enough to handle the more powerful cartridges. They were chambered for what we call 'pistol caliber' cartridges today, such as the 44 Henry Rimfire, 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20.

Check out the chamber of a Sharps or any of the other single shots of the day. They were massive, with thick chamber walls to contain the pressure of heavy caliber cartridges such as the 45-70.

That changed in 1876 when Winchester brought out the Model 1876. A larger version of the Model 1873, it was chambered for more powerful cartridges such as the 45-75 and 45-60.

After John Browning designed what became the Winchester Model 1892, he sold the patent to Winchester for a 'beefed up' version of the 1892 which Winchester marketed as the Model 1886. The Model 1886 was a massive rifle, fully capable of firing the 45-70 cartridge. And it was a repeater, unlike the 'big single shots'.

A Model 1886 Winchester with a 45-70 cartridge.

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Looking down at the locking lugs from the top.

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The action is open in this photo. The massive locking lugs have been drawn down, allowing the bolt to open and cock the hammer.

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Looking down into the action.

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During the time frame of the Old West, the Europeans invented bolt-action rifles (single shot or repeating??) which could handle potent bottleneck cartridges and racy Spitzer bullets. Arthur Savage made a racy-looking American lever gun in the 1890's that could handle those racy European style cartridges and still have that classic handiness of the all-American lever gun in the saddle of in the deer woods. Cowboys would not have been warm to the notion of bolt-action rifles in the 1890's. Not fast and handy and conducive to horseback work. You can easily cycle a lever with reins in hand. That John Wayne lever in True Grit had that big fat loop for gloved hands. Fill your hands, you sons of guns! Well, maybe not quite that line wording from the Duke. The Duke was facing off the villain character of Robert Duvall in the open field.
 
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I think most cowboy action shooters these days use cheap import reproductions for their sport. What do American cowboys usually carry for guns this day and age?

I am a CAS. I used Ruger Blackhawk and Vaquero, in .30 Carbine, .357, .41, .44, .45 C and .45 ACP.
A lot of shooters use the Italian clones. A few use "authentic" Colts (mostly '50s and newer manufacture, though)
A Henry rifle and a Win '92 (Myroku built, Browning stamped), in .45 C and .44M
At a shoot you will see original and new Winchester, Marlin; plus clones by Rossi and Italian
Shotguns are a total mix of SxS, Win '97, and an occasional 1887. Mine is a Rossi Coach Gun.

Grandson (10) uses a pair of Ruger Single Six, a Browning BL-22 and a Baikhal .410 SxS.
CHEAP? Nothing cheap about our set ups.

My only ORIGINAL. I had a Colt 1873 Thunderer in .38 Colt Long, manufacturer in 1883. I shot it, a few times (<20 rounds) and sold it. I am not interested in having something I cannot use. Cool gun, but a safe queens, nonetheless.
 
"Movie wise" Cowboys and Aliens is a western. The bad guys (the really bad guys) had some pretty sophisticated weaponry. But just goes to show that hollyweird's definition of "western" isn't really Western.

Leaving hollywood out of it, there is really not a set time for you to say this is the start of "the wild west" and this is the end. Most people will say after the civil war is the start, and that can vary several years, 65-70? just what you do you say.....and when did it end? Most will say 1900, but it was pretty wild and wooly up to the end of the first world war. There is no really set time....you could also say it is during the victorian age....but again that lasted quite a long time, and kinda over laps with edwardian age. It is a bit fuzzy.

Personally I just love the looks of the Remington revolver, it was also just so cool in Pale rider.....not the first time a movie has made me lust after a gun.....now if caps just become available again.
 
Arthur Savage made a racy-looking American lever gun in the 1890's that could handle those racy European style cartridges and still have that classic handiness of the all-American lever gun in the saddle of in the deer woods. Cowboys would not have been warm to the notion of bolt-action rifles in the 1890's. Not fast and handy and conducive to horseback work. You can easily cycle a lever with reins in hand. That John Wayne lever in True Grit had that big fat loop for gloved hands. Fill your hands, you sons of guns! Well, maybe not quite that line wording from the Duke. The Duke was facing off the villain character of Robert Duvall in the open field.

You really have to stop getting your references to guns of the Old West from movies and what ever you are reading on the Internet.

The Big Loop lever Model 1892 that John Wayne used in the original version of True Grit was totally an invention of Hollywood. A large loop lever gun like that was never manufactured during the 1800s, it was cobbled together by the prop men at the movie studios. Here is a publicity photo of John Wayne from the classic Western, Stage Coach, made in 1939. He is holding a Winchester Model 1892 that has been modified with a large loop lever. I repeat, silly levers like this were completely of Hollywood invention, they never existed in the Old West.

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More recently, replicas of the Model 1892 Winchester have been made with large loops, but they are only mimicking the fiction of the movies, there is nothing authentic about them. I know a guy who bought one of these a few years ago. On his way out the store he tried doing the 'John Wayne spin' to cock it. The muzzle hit him in the armpit and he dropped the rifle on the floor. Good thing it was not loaded.



Lever action rifles were among the earliest and most practical repeating rifles invented. You have to realize that up until that time the Civil War was fought mainly with muzzle loading rifled muskets. Yes, they were rifled. At one point during the Civil War the Springfield Armory was producing 1000 Springfield Model 1861 rifled muskets per day. But they were still muzzle loaders and still had to have the powder poured down the barrel, a 58 caliber Minié Ball dropped down the bore, and a percussion cap placed on the nipple. The firing rate of these rifled muskets had not improved much since the days of the American Revolution when a trained Minuteman could get off three aimed shots in a minute. The 1861 Springfield rifled musket was very powerful, and they were deadly accurate at long range. But they were slow to reload.

The development of self contained metallic cartridges during the middle of the 1800s made repeating rifles possible. The 1860 Henry carried fifteen 44 Henry Rimfire cartridges in a tubular magazine under the barrel. It could be fired as fast as a man could work the action. I can fire my reproduction Henry fast enough that I can empty the magazine in about 15 seconds. Others can shoot them much faster. But the point of the Henry and later Winchesters was not trick shooting from horseback, the point was to have rapid follow up shots in the heat of battle.

This is an actual contemporary advertisement of the Henry Rifle. Although I am not sure how they figured 60 shots per minute because the shooter has to stop and reload each time he empties the magazine of its fifteen cartridges. The claim about it being powerful at 1000 yards is suspect too. The velocity of the 44 Henry Rimfire was pretty slow by modern standards, it had a 'rainbow' trajectory. One would have to hold very high at 1000 yards to hit anything with assurance, and at that distance the little 200 grain bullet would have lost a lot of its punch. The claim about a resolute man not being captured does have a ring of truth. There was an incident during the Civil War when a group of Confederates approached the farmstead of a Union sympathizer. He grabbed his Henry rifle and hid in a cornfield, holding them off until they gave up and left.

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The scene in Lonesome Dove where Gus (yes, played by Robert Duvall) raised the rear sight way up to hit a bad guy at a great distance is pretty much movie fiction.

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Oliver Winchester tried to interest the Army in his new Henry rifle, but he was never able to win any sizeable military contracts. Mainly because the General in charge of procurement during the Civil War believed that giving soldiers repeaters would result in a waste of ammunition. It was only after Abraham Lincoln stepped in and ordered the Army to purchase Spencer rifles that the Army bought any repeaters. The only Henry rifles used during the Civil War had been purchased privately by the soldiers who used them, or a few state militias bought them for their troops. The cost of a Henry Rifle was very high in 1862, when they were first manufactured, a standard Henry cost $42.




The Savage rifle you are referring to is the Model 1899, or more simply the Model 99. Unlike earlier lever guns, the Savage 99 was hammerless, with an internal firing pin, and it had a rotary magazine rather than a tubular magazine slung under the barrel. Here is a link about the Savage Model 99.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_99
 
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Leaving hollywood out of it, there is really not a set time for you to say this is the start of "the wild west" and this is the end. Most people will say after the civil war is the start, and that can vary several years, 65-70? just what you do you say.....and when did it end? Most will say 1900, but it was pretty wild and wooly up to the end of the first world war. There is no really set time....you could also say it is during the victorian age....but again that lasted quite a long time, and kinda over laps with edwardian age. It is a bit fuzzy.

Personally I just love the looks of the Remington revolver, it was also just so cool in Pale rider.....not the first time a movie has made me lust after a gun.....now if caps just become available again.

Living in Rural Northern New Mexico the "wild west" didn't end until around WWII when so many local men saw the rest of the world for the first time. Most places didn't have running water or electricity until that time. Many folks wore guns to town and were not afraid to use them if needed. Law enforcement was thin to non-existent. It is slightly calmer now....:D
In my Grandparents day they had Comanche and Kiowa to the east, Ute and Cheyenne to the north, Navajo to the west, and Apache to the south. Bloody times.
Still a fair number of working cowboys in this area, but they are all getting a bit long in the tooth and not many youngsters coming up...
 
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You really have to stop getting your references to guns of the Old West from movies and what ever you are reading on the Internet.

The Big Loop lever Model 1892 that John Wayne used in the original version of True Grit was totally an invention of Hollywood. A large loop lever gun like that was never manufactured during the 1800s, it was cobbled together by the prop men at the movie studios. Here is a publicity photo of John Wayne from the classic Western, Stage Coach, made in 1939. He is holding a Winchester Model 1892 that has been modified with a large loop lever. I repeat, silly levers like this were completely of Hollywood invention, they never existed in the Old West.

View attachment 1073612




More recently, replicas of the Model 1892 Winchester have been made with large loops, but they are only mimicking the fiction of the movies, there is nothing authentic about them. I know a guy who bought one of these a few years ago. On his way out the store he tried doing the 'John Wayne spin' to cock it. The muzzle hit him in the armpit and he dropped the rifle on the floor. Good thing it was not loaded.



Lever action rifles were among the earliest and most practical repeating rifles invented. You have to realize that up until that time the Civil War was fought mainly with muzzle loading rifled muskets. Yes, they were rifled. At one point during the Civil War the Springfield Armory was producing 1000 Springfield Model 1861 rifled muskets per day. But they were still muzzle loaders and still had to have the powder poured down the barrel, a 58 caliber Minié Ball dropped down the bore, and a percussion cap placed on the nipple. The firing rate of these rifled muskets had not improved much since the days of the American Revolution when a trained Minuteman could get off three aimed shots in a minute. The 1861 Springfield rifled musket was very powerful, and they were deadly accurate at long range. But they were slow to reload.

The development of self contained metallic cartridges during the middle of the 1800s made repeating rifles possible. The 1860 Henry carried fifteen 44 Henry Rimfire cartridges in a tubular magazine under the barrel. It could be fired as fast as a man could work the action. I can fire my reproduction Henry fast enough that I can empty the magazine in about 15 seconds. Others can shoot them much faster. But the point of the Henry and later Winchesters was not trick shooting from horseback, the point was to have rapid follow up shots in the heat of battle.

This is an actual contemporary advertisement of the Henry Rifle. Although I am not sure how they figured 60 shots per minute because the shooter has to stop and reload each time he empties the magazine of its fifteen cartridges. The claim about it being powerful at 1000 yards is suspect too. The velocity of the 44 Henry Rimfire was pretty slow by modern standards, it had a 'rainbow' trajectory. One would have to hold very high at 1000 yards to hit anything with assurance, and at that distance the little 200 grain bullet would have lost a lot of its punch. The claim about a resolute man not being captured does have a ring of truth. There was an incident during the Civil War when a group of Confederates approached the farmstead of a Union sympathizer. He grabbed his Henry rifle and hid in a cornfield, holding them off until they gave up and left.

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The scene in Lonesome Dove where Gus (yes, played by Robert Duvall) raised the rear sight way up to hit a bad guy at a great distance is pretty much movie fiction.

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Oliver Winchester tried to interest the Army in his new Henry rifle, but he was never able to win any sizeable military contracts. Mainly because the General in charge of procurement during the Civil War believed that giving soldiers repeaters would result in a waste of ammunition. It was only after Abraham Lincoln stepped in and ordered the Army to purchase Spencer rifles that the Army bought any repeaters. The only Henry rifles used during the Civil War had been purchased privately by the soldiers who used them, or a few state militias bought them for their troops. The cost of a Henry Rifle was very high in 1862, when they were first manufactured, a standard Henry cost $42.




The Savage rifle you are referring to is the Model 1899, or more simply the Model 99. Unlike earlier lever guns, the Savage 99 was hammerless, with an internal firing pin, and it had a rotary magazine rather than a tubular magazine slung under the barrel. Here is a link about the Savage Model 99.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_99


You should write a non-fiction book: "The Truth and About Cowboys and Guns" Yes, the Hollywood romance of horses, high-heel-point-toe boots, silver spurs, shootin' irons and ten-gallon hats still runs wild as did the wild wild west. I found this video of a modern-day cowboy who keeps a six shooter in a "pistol scabbard". There are 'cowboy movie cowboy guns' and there are "real-world cowboy guns'.



Hikcock45's take on "cowboy guns of old":

 
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What is the quintessential caliber for an original Winchester 1873? What chambering would mounted cowboys have commonly in the scabbard carried from 1865 to 1895 in these guns?

The 1873 launched with the 44/40 and that was the cartridge in which the rifle was most chambered through the end of the century. It was also the most popular cartridge for a pistol / carbine combo and Colt chambered their SAA in 44/40 as the Colt Frontier. The 44/40 in black powder loads was all that the 45 Colt was and more.

If we go back before 1873 to the 1865 date you mention, things are much more complicated. S&W leased the Rollin White patent for the bored through cylinder from 1864 through 1870, which they somewhat missed the boat on by sticking with rimfire cartridges in 22, 32, and 44. Ironically, White had been a Colt employee. Colt had a conversion cylinder business with Richards and Mason patents using their cap and ball frames, and there were other conversions like the Theune (sp?). There was the 36 Colt and 44 Colt during that era. I don’t quite know how the conversion cylinders worked around the RW patent but I bet someone here does. Remington produced some revolvers with 1858 NMA frames but with the RW patent, again not sure how they had the rights.

But for all we tend to think the 45 Colt was THE Western cartridge, the fact is that even the Army used a cartridge that was much closer to the S&W 45 (Schofield) than the 45 Colt. The 44 American, 44 Russian, 38/40, were all quite popular and the 44 Henry rimfire lived on for quite a while. But the 44/40 was probably more popular than the 45 Colt among civilians.
 
What are the first American "smokeless" cartridges and "cowboy guns" in any of the following categories and what year?

1. SA revolver
2. coach gun
3. lever-action rifle

I believe the first repeating and single-shot fixed-ammunition guns of the Old West, and American in general, used black powder cartridges. I believe the Europeans had the jump on smokeless technology as the 19th century was nearing the end as they did with racy bolt-action rifles.
 
Much of this has already been covered.

The 44-40 version of the Colt Single Action Army was known as the Frontier Six Shooter. I posted a photo of one in post #28.

S&W did not 'lease' the Rollin White patent.

Yes, Rollin White was a Colt employee. And yes, he came up with a prototype to show Colt. The main idea of the prototype was not so much a cylinder with chambers bored through to accept cartridges, as a magazine system to load linen cartridges from the front of the cylinder and an automatic primer feed in front of the hammer. This is a scan of the prototype that White cobbled together to show Colt. Scanned from History of Smith and Wesson by Roy Jinks. Is it any wonder Colt rejected this kludge?

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After Colt passed on White's idea, White obtained a patent. This is White's patent drawing of his kludge from 1855. In those days the patent office was not terribly concerned if a design would actually work, patents were issued for many bizarre devices.

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After Daniel Wesson and Horace Smith left the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company (they were bought out by Oliver Winchester), Wesson designed a small 22 Rimfire revolver. It was designed to shoot a 22 caliber Rimfire cartridge designed by a Frenchman named Flobert. Today we would call the cartridge the 22 Short. Wesson came up with the idea of a cylinder bored though to accept cartridges independently, but when he did a patent search he discovered one aspect of White's ridiculous design was a bored through cylinder. Here is another Patent drawing of White's also dated 1855.

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Wesson wrote to White on October 31, 1856 regarding White's patent. A meeting between Daniel Wesson, his old partner Horace Smith, and Rollin White took place on November 17, 1856. White refused to sell the rights of his patent outright. Instead an agreement was signed where White granted Smith and Wesson exclusive license to manufacture revolvers with bored through cylinders. White was to be paid a royalty of $.025 for every revolver S&W manufactured. White in turn would not have the right to manufacture any revolvers covered by his patent, and White would have to pay all expenses defending the patent against patent infringements.

S&W began manufacturing the little 22 Rimfire revolvers in 1857. As I described earlier, they were called Tip Up revolvers because the barrel had to be rotated up and the cylinder removed to load them.

Like this 32 Rimfire No. 1 1/2:

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S&W did not miss any boats, the little Tip Ups were simply not strong enough for any cartridges other than 22 and 32 Rimfires. They experimented with a 44 Rimfire Tip Up but decided the design was not strong enough for a 44 caliber cartridge, so the Tip Ups were only made chambered for 22 and 32 Rimfire cartridges. This photo illustrates the three different Tip Up models. Top to bottom, the six shot 32 Rimfire No. 2 Old Army, the five shot 32 Rimfire No. 1 1/2, and a seven shot 22 Short No. 1.

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In 1868 Remington signed a contract with Smith and Wesson to convert a number of the 1858 New Model Army Cap & Ball revolvers to fire cartridges using a conversion cylinder. These revolvers were converted to fire a 46 Rimfire cartridge, and because the cartridge was so large they were made into five shot revolvers instead of the original six. The work was done at the Remington plant in Ilion NY, and the guns were inspected by Smith and Wesson in Springfield MA. S&W received a royalty of $1.00 for each of the 4,500 or so revolvers converted under the White Patent.



The White Patent expired in 1869. White applied for an extension of his patent, and the Congress passed a bill to extend White's patent, but White had ticked off the Army so badly during the Civil War that President Grant refused to sign the bill.


Colt designed the Thuer Conversion specifically to get around White's patent. This revolver had an unusual reverse tapered cartridge. The idea was that since the chamber was tapered from front to back, it could get around the White patent. The Thuer Conversion was an economic failure, only about 5,000 of them were made.

After the White patent expired in 1869, Colt was able to freely design other revolvers converted from percussion to fire cartridges with conversion cylinders bored through for cartridges.

The first of these was the Richards Conversion, designed by C.B. Richards, a brilliant Colt employee. It used parts from the 1860 Army 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolver, but the rear of the cylinder was cut off where the nipples had been, and a Conversion Ring was screwed to the frame to take up the empty space. A new cartridge, the 44 Colt, was designed for the Richards Conversion.

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William Mason, who later did most of the design work on the Single Action Army, made changes to the Richards Conversion making them simpler and less expensive to manufacture. This was the Richards-Mason Conversion.

Finally, the Open Top was designed just prior to the Single Action Army being released. It was the last of the Colt conversion revolvers.



Meanwhile Daniel Wesson had not been sleeping. He was sure the other revolver manufacturers would have their own cartridge revolvers ready for the market once the White Patent expired. So he designed a radical new revolver. It was a big, 44 Centerfire revolver that broke open from the top to load. It employed a mechanism that automatically ejected spent cartridges when the broken open. This new Top Break revolver hit the market in 1870, and the Army promptly bought 1000 of them.

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It took Colt until 1873 to finally release the Single Action Army cartridge revolver, and unlike the radical S&W design, it had to unloaded and reloaded one chamber at a time.

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As I said earlier, there were far more Single Action Army revolvers chambered for 45 Colt than for 44-40.
 
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Personally I just love the looks of the Remington revolver, it was also just so cool in Pale rider.....not the first time a movie has made me lust after a gun.....now if caps just become available again.

The revolver Clint is using in Pale Rider is the 1858 Remington, converted to fire cartridges.

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You can get around the lack of percussion caps by converting your Remington to fire cartridges with a conversion cylinder. I bought this 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder for my old EuroArms Remmie probably about 15 years ago.

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There are a few different brands of conversion cylinders on the market, Mine was marketed exclusively by Taylors at the time. It is a six shot cylinder chambered for 45 Colt, although I usually shoot 45 Schofield ammo loaded with Black Powder in it.

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Driftwood, in your opinion was sharing ammunition a common thing in the past or is this largely a phenomenon of modern shooters?

I have thought about getting a 44-40 SAA clone to go with my Uberti Winchester 1873 clone, but part of me thinks this would have been so much money back in the day, that it seems unlikely very many folks could have actually afforded or needed two top-of-the-line guns, neither of which was necessarily optimal for hunting.
 
The revolver Clint is using in Pale Rider is the 1858 Remington, converted to fire cartridges.

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You can get around the lack of percussion caps by converting your Remington to fire cartridges with a conversion cylinder. I bought this 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder for my old EuroArms Remmie probably about 15 years ago.

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There are a few different brands of conversion cylinders on the market, Mine was marketed exclusively by Taylors at the time. It is a six shot cylinder chambered for 45 Colt, although I usually shoot 45 Schofield ammo loaded with Black Powder in it.

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Yea I know, and did some research on just what you can and can't convert, as a general rule brass is a no go for cartridge conversions, where all steel is generally ok for "cowboy" loads.

I have looked at the black smoky stuff for years and just never made the jump. I can't tell you how many times I had everything in the cart only to close the window and start second thinking it again.

To me I really want to do black powder on a gun like this, be it cartridge or not, it is just how the gun was made and what that design was setup to use....I want to experience that. My trapdoor is the same way, I have only done smokeless through it, but really want to give ole smoky a try....every time I get close I stop back and think....filler, wads, lube, what a pain....I have enough on the plate now....perhaps another post retirement project.
 
Driftwood, in your opinion was sharing ammunition a common thing in the past or is this largely a phenomenon of modern shooters?

I have thought about getting a 44-40 SAA clone to go with my Uberti Winchester 1873 clone, but part of me thinks this would have been so much money back in the day, that it seems unlikely very many folks could have actually afforded or needed two top-of-the-line guns, neither of which was necessarily optimal for hunting.

The Colt Single Action Army, along with the 45 Colt cartridge, was designed specifically for the United States Army. Colt supplied SAA revolvers to the Army in 13 separate contracts, from 1873 until 1890. The price Colt charged the Army for each revolver varied from $12 to $13 over those years. Of course Colt began supplying Single Action Army revolvers to the public at some point, as I mentioned earlier the SAA was first chambered for 44-40 in 1878 and the Army never bought any 44-40 (Frontier Six Shooter) Colt revolvers. I do not have any references (other than reprints of old Sears Roebuck catalogs) stating the price Colt was charging for 'commercial' SAA revolvers, but I doubt it would have been any less than they were charging the Army.

I have a reprint of the1875 Winchester catalog. It shows Winchester was charging between $38 and $60 for the Model 1873 rifle, depending on how fancy they were. So if somebody wanted to purchase a 44-40 Colt and a 44-40 Model 1873 in 1878,the cheapest they could have gotten out of the gun shop would have been $50. Bear in mind the average cowboy only made about $20 a month in those days. I think this pretty much shoots a hole in the myth that cowboys carried a 44-40 revolver and a 44-40 rifle. A wealthy man could afford that, the average cow poke could not.

Just for the fun of it I ran these numbers through an online inflation calculator. $50 in 1878 would be $1,437.52 in 2022 dollars.

As I said earlier, surplussed out Colt and Remington Cap & Ball revolvers were available to the public generally for about $5, which would have been much more affordable to the average cowpoke.

But rifles were always expensive. In late 1862 a new Henry rifle cost $42. Sling swivels were an extra $2, Silver Plating and engraving increased the price by $10, Gold Plating and engraving increased the price by $12. 44 Henry Rimfire cartridges were $17.50/1,000.

Perhaps by 1878 the price of the 'obsolete' Henry rifle may have gone down, and a cowpoke could arm himself with both, but he would have needed to have a supply of powder, caps, and balls for his pistol.

Colt had a contract with the Army to convert 1,000 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolvers to fire cartridges with the Richardson Conversion for $3,595, or $3.95 each. This did not include the original cost of the Cap & Ball revolvers, only converting them to fire cartridges. My point is, by 1878 there were probably lots of Cartridge Conversion revolvers available on the used market.

Smith and Wesson had of course been making large, cartridge revolvers since 1869. The US Army bought 1,000 of what later became known as the American Model, but I have not found any reference to what the Army paid for them. I do have a reference that states the Russian Government signed a contract with S&W for 20,000 Russian Model revolvers for a price of $13.02 each. In later contracts S&W was charging the Russians $15 each. Smith and Wesson eventually built over 150,000 Russian models for the Russian, Turkish, and Japanese governments. This model was also available commercially here in the US, although I do not have any pricing on commercial Russian model S&W revolvers. My point is, with a total production of over 150,000, undoubtedly some wound up in the American West, probably for reduced prices. S&W made a total of 8,969 Schofield models between 1875 and 1877. These were almost all sold to the Army, only 650 were made for the commercial market. S&W signed a contract with the Army to supply the first 3,000 Schofield models for $13.50 each. S&W charged the government $17.50 each for the 2nd Model Schofield, with Colonel Schofield receiving a royalty of $.50 on each revolver. By 1880 the Army surplussed out all the Schofield revolvers in favor of the Colt SAA. A large quantity of these had their barrels cut to 5" and were sold to the Wells Fargo Express Company. Sorry, I have no figures on what Wells Fargo paid for them, but most likely less than when the Army bought them. My favorite large S&W Top Break, the New Model Number Three, was first produced in 1878 and cataloged until 1912. I do not have any pricing references for the New Model Number Three, but I suspect it was probably in line with the other large, Top Break S&W revolvers already mentioned.

So there you have it. Lots of choices of revolvers a cowpoke could probably afford, not so many choices with repeating rifles.
 
I picked up most of my information from some of the old, surviving cowboys that I met in the sanitariums and ghost towns of southern Oregon and northern California. The upshot was that guns were expensive gadgets that most of them didn't consider to be all that important in their daily life - as cowboys, that is.
Guns were far more important when they weren't being cowboys.
When they were unemployed and needed a bit of food, for example.
When I was talking to old man Catlin (grandson of the famous western artist) at his cabin at the end of the old Mormon trail in southern Oregon, he was always talking about what lousy shots most cowboys were because of how beat up their hands usually were. Of course, his hands were a prime example - he'd lost his right thumb in a roping mishap - a "dally hand", he called it.
Herding cattle is a dangerous job... .
 
I believe the first repeating and single-shot fixed-ammunition guns of the Old West, and American in general, used black powder cartridges. I believe the Europeans had the jump on smokeless technology as the 19th century was nearing the end as they did with racy bolt-action rifles.

At the time cartridges were being developed in the mid-1800s, the only propellant available was Black Powder. In those days it was simply called Gunpowder, the term Black Powder did not come into general use until after the development of Smokeless powders.

So of course, all the old revolver and rifle cartridges were originally loaded with Black Powder. The old terms 44-40, or 38-40, or 45-70 indicate the caliber of the cartridge with the first number and the weight in grains of the powder charge with the second number. These specifications varied slightly over time, but 44-40 meant a cartridge with a .44 (actually .427) diameter bullet loaded with 40 grains of Black Powder. For those who do not load their own cartridges, a grain is a unit of weight in the avoirdupois system. There are exactly 7,000 grains to a pound. 45-70 meant a .458 diameter bullet and 70 grains of Black Powder. This was a stout cartridge, only chambered in the early single action rifles, but eventually in lever guns such as the Model 1886 Winchester I posted earlier.

The original loading of the 45 Colt cartridge was a 250 grain .454 diameter bullet over 40 grains of Black Powder. Believe it or not, 38 Special was originally loaded with Black Powder, starting in 1899 with a charge of 21 1/2 grains of powder under a 158 grain bullet.

The burning characteristics of Black Powder require the case to be completely filled with powder, and slightly compressed. There is never any airspace in a cartridge loaded with Black Powder. So the overall size of the cartridge is a good indicator of its relative power. The 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge on the left in this photo had about 26 grains of Black Powder inside under a 216 grain bullet. I do not know how much powder is in the two 44 Colt cartridges in the center, and I am not going to take them apart to find out, but the old 45 Colt cartridge pictured at the right probably contained about 38-40 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet.

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This photo shows the cartridges that I load with Black Powder. Left to right they are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40, and 45-70. Each one is filled with Black Powder, so this is a fairly good representation of the relative power of each cartridge.

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Modern Solid Head brass does not have quite as much powder capacity as the old Balloon Head brass, so my loads in modern brass carry a little bit less powder than the original loads. On the left in this photo is an old Balloon Head Remington UMC 45 Colt case, on the right a modern Starline 45 Colt case. I cut each case in half for this photo. The slight difference in powder capacity should be obvious.

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This is what goes into my Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. 2.2CC (about 33.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg powder under a 250 grain .452 diameter bullet.

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My 45 Schofield rounds have 1.9CC (approximately 28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg powder under a 200 grain bullet.

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I put 1.3CC (approximately 19.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg powder under a 200 grain .428 diameter bullet in my 44 Russian loads.

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My Black Powder 12 gauge shotgun loads get 4.3CC (approximately 65 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under cardboard wads and 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot. Loaded into modern Remington STS hulls.

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Here is a batch of 44-40 being loaded with Black Powder into shiny new brass on one of my progressive reloading presses. After being fired with Black Powder the brass will never be that shiny again.

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This batch of 44 Russian brass has been fired several times with Black Powder. This is what my brass looks like after being fired with Black Powder, it never gets shiny again. It is clean, it just is not shiny.

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What are the first American "smokeless" cartridges and "cowboy guns" in any of the following categories and what year?

1. SA revolver
2. coach gun
3. lever-action rifle

Smokeless powder was developed right around the turn of the Century. (1900). At that time all the major ammunition companies began loading Smokeless powder into the old Black Powder cartridges. For some time these cartridges were available loaded with either Black Powder or Smokeless powder. I can tell you that because of the iron (yes iron) frames and cylinders used in the early Colt Single Action Revolvers, Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless powder until 1900, when they began using better grades of steel. Single Action Army revolvers made before 1900 should not be fired with Smokeless powder, those made in 1900 or later were proofed for Smokeless powder ammunition.

There is no well defined line in the sand regarding when Smith and Wesson revolvers were considered to be safe to fire with ammunition loaded with Smokeless powder. I have a reprint of the 1900 S&W catalog that advises against it. But a few years later S&W revolvers were commonly fired with Smokeless ammunition.

Winchester was an early user of Nickel Steel (steel with a little bit of nickel added to the alloy). Nickel Steel was better able to withstand the pressure spike generated by Smokeless powder than earlier alloys of steel. However, because there is much more steel around the chamber of a rifle than there is around the chamber of a revolver, it is not a big deal to shoot cartridges with light Smokeless loads in the older Winchester rifles. The 1895 Lee Navy bolt action rifle was the first rifle Winchester made with Nickel Steel. The barrel was marked "ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The 30-30 (30WCF) was the first American commercial Smokeless powder cartridge (never loaded with Black Powder). Winchester chambered the Model 1894 lever action rifle for 30-30 in 1894, it was the first lever action rifle Winchester made specifically proofed for Smokeless powder. This beautiful Model1894 with its 26" full octagon barrel shipped in 1895.

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Regarding shotguns, again you are letting the movies fool you. Coach guns were not as prevalent in the Old West as the movies would have you believe. A coach gun was just about useless shooting game, the pattern spread out much too much. Much more common would have been any standard Side X Side shotgun that a farmer would have hanging over the door. This type of shotgun was perfect for shooting game, the pattern did not spread so much as with a coach gun. Trust me on this.

I don't know about other manufacturers, but the Winchester Model 1897 pump shotgun was proofed for Smokeless powder. This 12 gauge Model 1897 with its full choke 30" barrel left the factory in 1909. It actually makes a pretty good Trap gun, I have won several Cowboy trap matches with it.

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The short-barrel double shotgun was a defensive shotgun just as the short pumps are these days. Did stagecoaches not carry these shotguns at all?
 
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The short-barrel double shotgun was a defensive shotgun just as the short pumps are these days. Did stagecoaches not carry these shotguns at all?

I have no data on how often coach guns were carried in stage coaches. Yes, I have seen them in movies, and the phrase Riding Shotgun must have come from somewhere. But I have seen rifles carried on stage coaches in the movies too.

My point was, a short barreled shotgun is useless for hunting, and there were probably far more standard length barrelled shotguns hanging over the doors of bunkhouses and farm houses than coach guns in The Old West.
 
I have no data on how often coach guns were carried in stage coaches. Yes, I have seen them in movies, and the phrase Riding Shotgun must have come from somewhere. But I have seen rifles carried on stage coaches in the movies too.

My point was, a short barreled shotgun is useless for hunting, and there were probably far more standard length barrelled shotguns hanging over the doors of bunkhouses and farm houses than coach guns in The Old West.


Useless for hunting?

Not so, short barrel shorty is great for quail, rabbit, jump shooting ducks, slugs for deer, and turkey.
With interchangeable choke tubes, a short barrel will do anything a long barrel can.
The only advantage to a long barrel is on follow through. Long barrels swing smoother.
 
We are talking about the Old West.

There were no interchangeable choke tubes in the Old West.

I am a pretty good Trap Shooter.

Could not hit anything with my short Coach Gun, because it had been sawed off and it had open chokes.
 
There were no interchangeable choke tubes in the Old West.

Just to nitpick, how far west did the Roper Revolving Shotgun ca 1869 get? It had screw chokes.

Wells Fargo and the other express companies bought shotguns to guard stage coaches and railroad express cars. I don't know offhand what barrel lengths they got. The fake a friend had was of hunting gun length.
 
Just to nitpick, how far west did the Roper Revolving Shotgun ca 1869 get? It had screw chokes.

Learn something every day. I never heard of the Roper Revolving Shotgun before.

Here is a Forgotten Weapons video with Ian McCollum describing one. Ian mentions it did not make a big dent in the market place so they are quite rare today. Ian does not mention anything about screw in chokes, but that does not mean it did not have any.

 
We are talking about the Old West.

There were no interchangeable choke tubes in the Old West.

I am a pretty good Trap Shooter.

Could not hit anything with my short Coach Gun, because it had been sawed off and it had open chokes.

There were no stainless revolvers or adjustable sights or .357, .41, .44 magnums; but there are plenty around a CAS.
 
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