Who is fighting for these Gun Law Proposals?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by bdrift10, Jan 10, 2016.

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  1. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    No, what THEY get is a list of gun owners.

    In Ohio, if you never buy a gun from an FFL or get an Ohio CHL, there is NO record of you as a gun owner.

    They have NO need to know everybody who owns a gun, and giving them that information can lead to no good end.
     
  2. abajaj11

    abajaj11 Member

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    Your idea of citizens carrying "OK to buy" ID cards will NOT allow the feds to monitor that a background check took place after EVERY sale. Folks with ID cards could buy or sell in private to anyone in their state WITHOUT checking IDs. .

    Universal background checks can ONLY be enforced if the monitoring authority knows who owns what BEFORE and AFTER every sale. That is registration.

    In fact, any activity that needs to be done at EVERY sale can only be effectively monitored and enforced with registration.

    For example, if the feds stipulate that you need to be an FFL if you sell more than, say, 20 guns a year, then that means you have to update a COUNT after every sale, which again can only be effectively monitored and enforced by knowing that a sale actually took place, which can only be done by knowing WHO owns what BEFORE and AFTER the sale, which can only be done by registration.

    Registration is a very very bad idea for ALL gun owners. It's ONLY purpose is confiscation down the road.
    Hopefully this shows why all 2A supporters should be AGAINST universal background checks.

    And in fact, against any activity that needs to be done after every sale.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  3. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    How old are you? See the posts above.........
    And WHO sets the criteria for this wonderful "card"? Bloomberg? Chicago DA?, or one of the other folks from the anti states?
     
  4. wahsben

    wahsben Member

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    We've already been compromised over & over again.
    The anti-gunners don't want compromise they want confiscation.
     
  5. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    If you have ANY doubts about the anti's goal, all you need to do is listen to a speech that the
    "wicked witch of the West", Putrid Pelosi, gave in the late 90s. That's the one where she flatly said that if she could have forced the issue then she would have been for EVERYBODY to turn in their guns.
     
  6. Twiki357

    Twiki357 Member

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    1. Without the NICS or something similar, how would the determination be made for who qualifies for that purchase or Foid card?... I know. Issue it at birth and revoke it for those who commit a crime.

    2. A purchase or Foid card would have to be in a database somewhere. In other words the registration of gun owners instead of guns. That would work pretty good, just ask the former gun owners in Australia and the UK.
     
  7. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    Bingo. That's why so many people lots faith in the NRA in the 80s and 90s. Every "compromise" ended in a loss for gun owners, but no gains.

    If they propose taking them all, offering them half is NOT a compromise, except in the eyes of our president. It's got nothing to do with "neither side is willing to give an inch". The last REAL compromise I can think of was way back when the state of Florida would began issuing concealed carry permits in exchange for increased penalties for illegal concealed carry. That was long ago.

    Actually the whole NICS program was a "compromise" where we gained nothing.
     
  8. GAF

    GAF Member

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    xy and z
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  9. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Better plan. Take all the people who are too dangerous to be trusted with a gun and lock them up. Then we know that if your walking free it's ok for you to own a gun. No need to fill out any forms or run background checks.
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Right. Of course. That's the easy way.

    In the end, of practically the same effectiveness and likelihood as registering all the guns and gun owners. About zero either way.
     
  11. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    At least my way makes it obvious who has been stripped of their rights.
     
  12. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    In My Own Opinion, ID cards for purchasing firearms are an absolutely terrible idea (just ask gun owners in New Jersey what THEY think of the Firearms ID card).

    Firearm ID cards an infringement on the second amendment, because they put additional costs and burdens on law abiding citizens. Also ID cards can take a long time to be issued, (just ask New Jersey gun owners!). Waiting for ID cards and permits can lead to someone losing their life because they were waiting for permission to get a firearm to protect themselves. Read the end of this post. By the way, New Jersey has had theirs since 1966. Illinois since 1968 and Massachusetts since 1970.


    OK, so New Jersey has an Firearms ID card scheme since 1966. In NJ you need the card to buy BB Guns, Black Powder Guns as well as conventional firearms and ammo. It takes 4 to 20 weeks to get approved for the card after providing your fingerprints, two or three references (including a reference from your employer in some towns) and costs $65 +/- .

    Did that card supplant the NICS in NJ? Nope ! In fact after going through all the hoops, you still have to go through the state run NICS which costs $15 per transaction.

    So the idea of coming up with an national ID card to purchase firearms, what is to prevent the government for putting other standards, requirements, costs and burdens for the card?

    If the government stops using the current NICS in favor of the cards. What is going to prevent the government from starting up the current NICS system again?

    Waiting for ID cards and permits in order to buy a gun protect oneself can lead to very negative consequences. Read the results at the end of the post.


    Right now in most states you can pass a NICS check in 5 minutes. With the Firearms ID proposal, that 5 minutes could translate into 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 months or more. If a person who never owned a gun before and didn't have the Firearms ID card with the ID proposal in place and wanted to protect themselves. They are Plain Out of Luck.

    And we seen first hand in New Jersey what happens when you have to wait to get permission to protect yourself! Carol Browne is dead because her Firearms ID permit to purchase a handgun didn't come back in time. Her ex murdered her.

    Firearm ID cards? HELL NO!

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/21065-new-jersey-s-anti-gun-laws-blamed-for-woman-s-murder


    "On April 21 she also applied for a permit to purchase a handgun to defend herself, and was still waiting for approval on the day she was murdered. Knowing that under New Jersey law, law enforcement officials are required either to issue or deny issuance within 30 days, on Monday, June 1 she contacted the police department to check on the status of her application. It was still pending."

    She was murdered June 3
    .
     
  13. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's the fly in that simple sounding "ointment", UBCs require registration of firearms to be of real value and even then there's no indication that a reduction in violent crime is helped by it. Then what value is there if not to reduce violent crime in a statistically significant way? Registration of firearms is anathema to RKBA proponents because a registry can facilitate confiscation schemes. Confiscation is the stated goal of some of the most powerful Anits. RKBA advocates aren't willing to accept that risk.
     
  14. basicblur

    basicblur Member

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    While we're focusing on the registration part, don't forget - in Washington and/or Oregon, where "universal" background checks are now in effect, there are a ton of gotchas for the law abiding citizen as Bloomberg's stooges are redefining the meaning of "transfer":

    1. A friend at your house wants to see / feel one of your guns - if you hand it to him without a background check, are you now a criminal?

    2. If you visit a friend's house and he wants to see your CCW and you hand it to him without a background check, are you now a criminal?

    3. When hunting, when you come to a fence and follow the acknowledged safest way to cross a fence with a firearm (let your buddy hold it for you while you cross), if you didn't do a background check, are you now a criminal?

    4. Once you get on the other side, and your buddy hands you both your and his rifles to hold while he crosses the fence without a background check, is he now a criminal, and have you committed a second crime with the additional transfer of your gun back to yourself without said check?

    Yadda yadda yadda....

    Many low information voters (and gun owners) may scoff and proclaim how utterly ridiculous those examples are, but if you have universal background checks... :scrutiny:
     
  15. JSH1

    JSH1 Member

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    As an Oregon resident the answers to your questions are:
    1. No
    2. No
    3. No
    4. No
     
  16. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    One reason gun registration can not work is because we have 300million+ guns in circulation now. I can see them implementing (in their own, sick minds) full registration of all gun sales. Ok, from that day forward, every gun that is sold/traded/transferred/gifted/inherited is put into some kind of humongous database run by .gov. That still leaves 300,000,000+ guns out in the free world with the only record of them in some FFL's file cabinet (or turned in to the .gov when they closed and are in some file, somewhere). Some more will be registered in states like NY, CT, NJ, etc., where registration is already in place. My point is, what happens to the 300 million+ guns already in the hands of people who will now hold onto them because they are "clean"? Forced registration in NY and CT resulted in a meager response even though refusing the order can make someone a felon. There are now millions of potential felons in the NY/CT war zone because of non-compliance. Gun owners didn't care.

    I believe the .gov knows they can't register what is already out there. Won't happen. Their only saving grace is to outlaw gun ownership, period. That is their only goal. I do not believe anything else that spews from their lips. They want our gun, every one of them. That is the only thing that will give them their end result.
     
  17. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    I have a better idea.

    Free health care, a 4 day work week, paid 30 day annual vacations and federally mandated $30/hr minimum wage.

    You will have all of that before you get your rather optimistic proposals.

    But don't give up, it could happen.
     
  18. MagnunJoe

    MagnunJoe Member

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    Nobody. We r on our own. NRA has had trouble buying politicians lately. When HRC gets 2 WH, NRA will be even more powerless.
     
  19. basicblur

    basicblur Member

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    I hope you're correct, but if Oregon passed some type of "universal" background check, it's hard to believe it didn't use some Bloomberg boilerplate.

    I recently was listening to a podcast with one of the folks that's on this stuff full time (Gottlieb? Don't remember the name) was discussing the recently passed laws out west. Couldn't remember if they were talking Washington or Oregon, hence the and/or in my original post.

    Anywho...in the examples I gave, you would be breaking the law in at least three of the previous examples, and maybe all four.

    I've heard that Schummer's scheme would not make you a criminal if someone checked out your gun at your house, but you would be breaking the law if you let someone check out your gun if you were at their house.

    Bottom line is these laws are:
    1. Rediculous.
    2. Will do nothing to stop crime.
    3. Will, in fact, make a lot of previous law abiding citizens criminals.
    4. The true BG's in society won't pay a bit of attention to such laws.

    After all, they're too busy on other "enterprises" and aren't too concerned about breaking the law (multiple times) by holding their buddy's deer rifle while crossing a fence.
     
  20. wally

    wally Member

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    We should be making at least as much stink about UBC as the left has done about VoterID.
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    If you want to have REAL fun, just ask an anti-gun cultist the following:

    "If voter ID is racist, isn't gun owner ID even MORE racist, given the Jim Crow history of gun control in North America?"

    In most cases, you'll get nothing but dumb silence.

    In a few, you'll get laughable attempts to dismiss Jim Crow as an institution, including systemic attempts to stop Blacks from voting.
     
  22. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    Simplest proposal I heard was include on state ID/drivers license if a person is under firearms disability since state ID or driver's license is the required form of ID in every state's firearms transactions. Eve private sellers could easily check an ID of a buyer. This would not affect or inconvenience the law abiding. It would only be a state registration of those under firearms disability.
     
  23. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    They are getting pretty close to that in Common Europe.
    But they still don't have many (legal) guns.


    Since we can't lock up all the rogues and throw away the key, I kind of like this one.
    In extreme cases of violent felons paroled, I suggest a big bold tattoo. Or brand, like our Founding Fathers did.
     
  24. DIY-Pete

    DIY-Pete Member

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    I like this idea a lot. They keep a database of those that are restricted from ownership and that is indicated on State issued ID. If you aren't in the data base you aren't banned. Not only is it simple, it doesn't create a registry of any sort. They would need to create a way to challenge being on the banned list, in case someone is put on it that shouldn't be on it (no fly list pops to mind).

    Pete
     
  25. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    That's because most of them have never had a civics or history class and have NO idea what you are saying..................................... ;)
     
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