Who's loading hollow base bullets now

[AJC1]

It seems if you have an overbore or many guns in the same caliber this might be an awesome option. I have never loaded or shot any but found myself curious. Does anyone cast hollowbases? Intrested in any experiences.

 

[PWC]

Rifle or pistol? Blackpowder folks do.

 

[fxvr5]

It seems if you have an overbore or many guns in the same caliber this might be an awesome option.

Why would this matter? I have many guns in the same caliber but can't understand why I would want to use hollow base bullets because of that.

And what does overbore have to do with it?

 

[AJC1]

Why would this matter? I have many guns in the same caliber but can't understand why I would want to use hollow base bullets because of that.
Do you own any old guns?

And what does overbore have to do with it?

Some guns you just dont rebarrel like an all original 7.7 arasaka

Rifle or pistol? Blackpowder folks do.

I was thinking rifle 45/70. Low power trailboss loads may opterate better and improve accuracy. Unique and 2400 loads may also benefit. No idea but curious.

 

[bersaguy]

Why would this matter? I have many guns in the same caliber but can't understand why I would want to use hollow base bullets because of that.

And what does overbore have to do with it?

I believe the idea is a hollow base bullet will obturate better to fit an oversize bore. Not sure how well that works in practice with a copper plated projectile, but in theory they may offer better accuracy with oversize bores, and/or better consistentcy across a variety of barrels with slight variations in diameter

 

[johnjohn]

I use Lee mold 405 grain hollow base. For my 45/70. Works well.

 

[Texas10mm]

I picked up a hollow base wadcutter mold for the 38/357. I haven't cast and loaded any yet because it's summer here in north Texas.

I've shot hollow base bullets before. They work quite well.

 

[Bill M.]

I am loading HB 9 mm to shoot my Ruger convertible. I hoped the HB might get a little better accuracy. I can not really tell the difference. Both SB and HB probably shoot better than I can. I am loading the thick plated bullets from Berrys. Also the HB in 9 mm is supposed to give you a little more surface engaging the lands. When I re order I am going to get the HB again. I certainly found nothing against them.

 

[Ruger 15151]

I have shot a lot of Barry's HBTP 9mm bullets for plinking loads and they shot well enough. Nothing shoots as accurate as a jacketed bullet due to the tighter manufacturing tolerances (weight, diameter, etc). That may be the reason the concept of hollow back bullets (except 38/357) hasn't been adopted by any of the major bullet manufactures. I think, for the hollow base to be effective, you also need to be using a soft lead bullet and a very light load such as what guys are loading in 38 special for bullseye to keep from blowing out the bullet.

If you have an oversized barrel, I think you are better off going with a larger diameter bullet such as Zero .356 or Hornady HAP in 9mm for example.

 

[mdi]

Why would this matter? I have many guns in the same caliber but can't understand why I would want to use hollow base bullets because of that.

And what does overbore have to do with it?

Same caliber, but barrel dimensions do vary. If one had a 38 Special hollow based bullet load it would work in barrels with groove diameters from, .356" to .358". (I have 4, 38 cal revolvers and cylinder throats vary .003" and barrel groove diameters up to .358".)...

 

[LiveLife]

I have shot a lot of Barry's HBTP 9mm bullets for plinking loads and they shot well enough. Nothing shoots as accurate as a jacketed bullet due to the tighter manufacturing tolerances (weight, diameter, etc). That may be the reason the concept of hollow back bullets (except 38/357) hasn't been adopted by any of the major bullet manufactures. I think, for the hollow base to be effective, you also need to be using a soft lead bullet and a very light load such as what guys are loading in 38 special for bullseye to keep from blowing out the bullet.

Perhaps a little history of hollow base bullet development/evolution will shed some light on the discussion and help the OP.

If I recall correctly, Berry's Manufacturing tested several things to improve accuracy of their plated bullets like double striking (sizing) to produce more rounded bullet base, etc. Here's comment from Jay Phillips who is no longer working with Berry's MFG - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/plated-bullets.588827/page-2#post-7271984

we try and get better every chance we get. Over the years we've added to the thickness of the plating, restrike every bullet now, and are holding better weight tolerances by purchasing specifically alloyed lead from the foundry that is able to give us the same alloy every truckload.

While most other plated bullet manufacturers sized their bullet same as jacketed bullet diameters, one of the things Berry's MFG tested that was effective was sizing the diameter of bullets larger (.001" larger like lead bullets) to better seal with the barrel to produce more consistent chamber pressures -https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...berrys-plated-124grn-9mm.550411/#post-6813199

We do go to a .356" with the 9mm bullets, all of our pistol bullets are .001" over just like a cast lead bullet.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/berry-plated-bullets.532751/page-3#post-6630850

We use carbide re-strike dies that helps us keep the uniformity on the final size. When you measure the bullet use a mic at the base. Our 9mm bullets are .356 + or - .0005"

We have a plus or minus .0005" to give us a bit of room with the dies. Our die manufacture gives us a plus or minus of the .0005", wear is a factor as well.

I shot USPSA in the 90s and used Montana Gold jacketed bullets exclusively for match rounds and Berry's plated bullets for practice rounds as they were much cheaper and shot more accurate than other brand plated bullets. But my experience with shooting various brand plated bullets was that plated bullets started to lose accuracy at higher than mid-range jacketed load data (And why thicker plated bullets were developed) and best of "regular/standard" plated bullet accuracy never came close to average jacketed bullet accuracy. When I asked my bullseye match shooting reloading mentor why, he pointed out that lead base of FMJ would better expand to seal with the barrel (Like Minié ball design) while plated bullets with rounded base would leak more gas, especially when sized smaller at jacketed diameters of .355" and shot from .356"+ groove diameter barrels.

Another factor I found reloading plated bullets was many plated bullet manufacturers used softer lead alloy core and using too much taper crimp would reduce the diameter of the bullet while brass spring back would reduce neck tension which would stack on top of gas leakage from jacketed diameter sizing to reduce accuracy further. So when using plated bullets, I have been recommending minimal to no taper crimp (.022" added to the diameter of bullet as max amount of taper crimp).

To improve bullet base deformation/expansion and to better seal with the barrel, some bullet manufacturers "dished" or used concave bullet base or in the case of Zero/RMR, used larger sizing (.3555"/.356) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

Below comparison picture shows (From left to right) various 115 gr FMJ RN from Zero, RMR, Winchester (with skirt base/sharp rim), Everglades (dished base) and Federal (hollow base) - NOTE that Federal hollow base FMJ shows longer bullet length with longer bullet base/bearing surface to better engage rifling.

And Speer TMJ (Trademark Total Metal Jacket) thick plated bullets use distinctive dished base with clear circular stamping - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/starting-load-for-147-gr-9mm.870683/#post-11549553

Here's Jay Phillips' comment on plating failure - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-berrys-bullets-question.437798/#post-6697276

I have never cut through the plating with my crimp die. I have never shed copper when firing my .357 Mag or 10mm beyond the 1200FPS. I hear a lot about limited speeds in the .45 due to the plating, but have never seen chronographed data to support it. We have added plating thickness to all of our bullets over the last 10 years to a point that the current bullets are a very different animal.

But to improve the accuracy of regular plated bullets (Around .004" thickness copper plating with 1200 fps max velocity), Berry's MFG developed and tested hollow base bullet with thicker copper plating - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rys-plated-bullets.548232/page-3#post-6808876

That 1200 fps mark is a general rule on the pistol calibers ... have some proto's in the 124gr RN hollow base with a thicker plate that should take care of the issues you guys are seeing in trying to punish our standard bullets.

And Berry's MFG produced Hollow Base RN with thicker plating of .006"-.012" with 1500 fps rating - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-jacketed-or-just-plated.759800/#post-9589491

Depending on caliber our plating is no less than .006" and goes up to .012" thick.

Speer TMJ bullets are a plated bullet with an even thicker plating coming close to a jacket at about .015" in thickness.

And the birth of Berry's HBRN-TP bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-hollow-base-rn-for-9mm.581070/#post-7169773

New bullet today

Below are comparison pictures of (From left to right) Berry's regular plated 115 gr RN bullet with rounded solid base, 124 gr Hollow Base RN with thicker plating, 115 gr HBRN-TP and Winchester 115 gr FMJ RN with sharp skirt (Likely meant to better capture expanding gas like dished/concave bullet base some plated bullet manufacturers use like Speer TMJ) - Notice that 115 gr HBRN-TP produces longer bullet length compared to 115 gr Regular RN solid base for longer bullet base/bearing surface for better engagement with rifling (And greater rotational stability in flight for smaller groups as experienced by many users of Berry's HBRN-TP bullets).

But notice below that Berry's hollow base is not a true hollow base like the Federal 115 gr FMJ HB bullet shown below left with thinner skirt. Jay Phillips from Berry's MFG explained that this smaller hollow base with thicker skirt was to prevent skirt separation from core - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/best-copper-plated-full-wadcutter.536271/#post-6662715

It seems if you have an overbore or many guns in the same caliber this might be an awesome option. I have never loaded or shot any but found myself curious. Who's loading hollow base bullets now. Interested in any experiences.

IMHO, Berry's MFG's push for developing hollow base plated bullets with thicker plating was to improve their regular plated solid base bullets to result in greater accuracy, even when using max jacketed load data.

It is my opinion only that Berry's hollow base bullets, while producing better than average plated bullet performance in terms of accuracy, may not expand the bullet base/skirt enough to compensate for oversized barrels. Instead, use of larger sized bullets or true hollow base FMJ may address the oversized barrel issue better.

I hope this helped.

 

[AJC1]

Perhaps a little history of hollow base bullet development or evolution will shed some light on the discussion and help the OP.

If I recall correctly, Berry's Manufacturing tested several things to improve accuracy of their plated bullets like double striking (sizing) to produce more rounded bullet base, etc. Here's comment from Jay Phillips who is no longer working with Berry's MFG - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/plated-bullets.588827/page-2#post-7271984

​

While most other plated bullet manufacturers sized their bullet same as jacketed bullet diameters, one of the things Berry's MFG tested that was effective was sizing the diameter of bullets larger (.001" larger like lead bullets) to better seal with the barrel to produce more consistent chamber pressures -https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...berrys-plated-124grn-9mm.550411/#post-6813199

​

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/berry-plated-bullets.532751/page-3#post-6630850

​

I shot USPSA in the 90s and used Montana Gold jacketed bullets exclusively for match rounds and Berry's plated bullets for practice rounds as they were much cheaper and shot more accurate than other brand plated bullets. But my experience with shooting various brand plated bullets was that plated bullets started to lose accuracy at higher than mid-rang jacketed load data (And why thicker plated bullets were developed) and best of "regular/standard" plated bullet accuracy never came close to average jacketed bullet accuracy. When I asked my bullseye match shooting reloading mentor why, he pointed out that lead base of FMJ would better expand to seal with the barrel (Like Minié ball design) while plated bullets with rounded base would leak more gas, especially when sized smaller at jacketed diameters of .355" and shot from .356"+ groove diameter barrels.

Another factor I found reloading plated bullets was many plated bullet manufacturers used softer lead alloy core and using too much taper crimp would reduce the diameter of the bullet while brass spring back would reduce neck tension which would stack on top of gas leakage from jacketed diameter sizing to reduce accuracy further. So when using plated bullets, I have been recommending minimal to no taper crimp (.022" added to the diameter of bullet as max amount of taper crimp).

To improve bullet base deformation/expansion and to better seal with the barrel, some bullet manufacturers "dished" or used concave bullet base or in the case of Zero/RMR, used larger sizing of (.3555"/.356) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

Below comparison picture shows (From left to right) various 115 gr FMJ RN from Zero, RMR, Winchester (with skirt base/sharp rim), Everglades (dished base) and Federal (hollow base) - NOTE that Federal hollow base FMJ shows longer bullet length with longer bullet base/bearing surface to better engage rifling.

And Speer TMJ (Trademark Total Metal Jacket) thick plated bullets use distinctive dished base with clear circular stamping - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/starting-load-for-147-gr-9mm.870683/#post-11549553

Here's Jay Phillips' comment on plating failure - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-berrys-bullets-question.437798/#post-6697276

​

But to address the accuracy issue of regular plated (Around .004" thickness copper plating with 1200 fps max velocity limitation, Berry's MFG developed and tested hollow base bullet with thicker copper plating - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rys-plated-bullets.548232/page-3#post-6808876

​

And Berry's MFG produced Hollow Base RN with thicker plating of .006"-.012" with 1500 fps rating - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-jacketed-or-just-plated.759800/#post-9589491

​

And the birth of Berry's HBRN-TP bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-hollow-base-rn-for-9mm.581070/#post-7169773

​

Below are comparison pictures of (From left to right) Berry's regular plated 115 gr RN bullet with rounded solid base, 124 gr Hollow Base RN with thicker plating, 115 gr HBRN-TP and Winchester 115 gr FMJ RN with sharp skirt (Likely meant to better capture expanding gas like dished/concave bullet base some plated bullet manufacturers use like Speer TMJ) - Notice that 115 gr HBRN-TP produces longer bullet length compared to 115 gr Regular RN solid base for longer bullet base/bearing surface for better engagement with rifling (And greater rotational stability in flight for smaller groups as experienced by many users of Berry's HBRN-TP bullets).

But notice below that Berry's hollow base is not a true hollow base like the Federal 115 gr FMJ HB bullet shown below left with thinner skirt. Jay Phillips from Berry's MFG explained that this smaller hollow base with thicker skirt was to prevent skirt separation from core - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/best-copper-plated-full-wadcutter.536271/#post-6662715

IMHO, Berry's MFG's push for developing hollow base plated bullets with thicker plating was to improve their regular plated solid base bullets to result in greater accuracy, even when using max jacketed load data.

It is my opinion only that Berry's hollow base bullets, while producing better than average plated bullet performance in terms of accuracy, may not expand the bullet base/skirt enough to compensate for oversized barrels and larger sized bullets or true hollow base FMJ may address the oversized barrel issue.

I hope this helped.

I was inclined to think that HB bullets were to be loaded very low velocity to prevent ring damage. Your points were very helpful and I never saw the provided Berry's information before. Always in the search for complete understanding. I had been reading the benifits of the Hollow base mini ball and trying to find out if those improvements would apply to low velocity large caliber rounds like the 45/70. Its not like that round is exactly modern.

 

[SlowFuse]

I'm casting a lot of hollow base bullets lately, but nothing modern. Just black powder.

Have tried commercial cast hollow bases for 38 special, 32's and 45-70's. The only ones I can recommend is for the handgun rounds. Much prefer plain base lead in the 45-70. I could see the rifle rounds being beneficial if you have a larger/inconsistent bore size applying the logic used with the minies. They may expand to fill the gap if bore diameter measurement doesn't remain static or if the bullet isnt ideally sized, or undersized.

Here's samples of the varieties i'm using for black powder.

 

[PO2Hammer]

The Win 9mm hollow base 115 FMJ is a very accurate bullet.
Not as impressed with Berry's 9mm 124 HBFP or their 45 Auto 200 HBFP.
It seems like you really have to push them to get good accuracy.