Why .40 when there is 10mm?

[Nom de Forum]

This thread has me wondering if a Fanboy reference tool should not be created. You know something relatively inexperienced THR members can use to evaluate the possibility a thread topic will be filled with hyperbole, emotion based defense of argument, erroneous calculations, comments implying the lesser manhood of those who disagree with a poster, etc. I have not given much thought about how the reference tool would be constructed. I do know that whatever the layout of the reference tool it would indicate any thread about Glocks, 10mms, and 1911s have a high probability of being filled with nonsense.

10mms don't recoil that much more than .45s? That is a hilarious example of nonsense! ROFLMAO! If you're 10mm is not recoiling more than the same platform in .45acp you are not really shooting a 10mm. I have been shooting 10mm for 25 years off and on in 1911s and Glocks with full power loads and they noticeably recoil more than .45acp. I did not need a "Recoil Calculator" to tell me than. Hey some of you 10mm fans please stop embarrassing the rest of us.

 

[Browning]

That's funny, talks about others laying out an emotional argument and then lays out an emotional argument.

Whatever. People are going to use what they like and then justify however after they go through some sort of vetting process. Whether that vetting process just consists of reading gun rag articles or posts on the net or they go through some exhaustive long term process of gel testing, shooting common materials that could be used for cover and concealment, range shooting, competition, handgun hunting of deer or hogs and range drills. Still adds up to the same thing in their minds, it's just one is a little more fact based than the other and has a little more evidence to back it up.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Back to the original question:

"I see lot of praises for .40. However, why go 40 and compromise between 9 and 45, when you can have 10mm and the best of power and capacity."​

One argument is probably:

• A gun that can handle 10mm full-power rounds is arguably a much different gun than one that can only handle .40 rounds. The full-power 10mm gun is stouter and typically larger; I don't seem many compact or sub-compact 10mm guns, but there are compact and sub-compact 40s.

• Not everybody wants to deal with the recoil of full-power rounds.

• Not everybody has a hand large enough to work with the longer 10mm round when in a magazine inside a pistol grip -- as a consequence, the EXTRA CAPACITY of 10mm round isn't available to all shooters.

• If only guns competent to handle 10mm full-power rounds were available, the array of 10mm rounds would have to be increased to include less potent rounds for those who don't need or don't want the extra recoil of 10mm full-power loads.

I've had a couple of 10mm guns. Fine guns. They just didn't fill a need that I needed filled. Other shooters find them useful.

.

 

[Nom de Forum]

That's funny, talks about others laying out an emotional argument and then lays out an emotional argument.

Whatever. People are going to use what they like and then justify however after they go through some sort of vetting process. Whether that vetting process just consists of reading gun rag articles or posts on the net or they go through some exhaustive long term process of gel testing, shooting common materials that could be used for cover and concealment, range shooting, competition, handgun hunting of deer or hogs and range drills. Still adds up to the same thing in their minds, it's just one is a little more fact based than the other and has a little more evidence to back it up.

Actually it is not just "funny" it is also ironic. Being human I too can get annoyed and express emotion in a post. That being said the point of my post was not that emotion should not be expressed the point was about the extreme amount of its expression on some topics to the point of posting nonsense. I challenge you to find proof of what I posted with emotion being factually incorrect. Pull out your recoil calculator and compare the hottest .45acp to the hottest 10mm. Prove to me I posted emotional nonsense.

 

[Browning]

I just thought it funny that you talk a bunch of smack on emotional based arguments and then proceeded to use an emotional based argument.

The rest of my post was about doing your homework on a caliber and testing it for yourself. I've already done so. My ability to rapidly engage targets with a hot loaded 10mm isn't any less than a .45 ACP loaded with +P's. I've already done my homework on it, so go ahead and challenge away. I'm not your secretary, do your own work.

 

[herrwalther]

The .40 exists because no agency has the time or equipment to use the 10mm to full potential. If you have a reloading bench you can tune the 10mm for recoil sensitive shooters or make a really hot load for stronger hands. Whereas in .40, most people can handle 180gr loads with not much issue. And 165gr loads are better for follow up and recoil still.

 

[Nom de Forum]

My ability to rapidly engage targets with a hot loaded 10mm isn't any less than a .45 ACP loaded with +P's. I've already done my homework on it, so go ahead and challenge away. I'm not your secretary, do your own work.

Sure you can. The only work I'm interested in doing is holding the shot timer when you are attempting to demonstrate that. Shoot a G20 with the hottest loads and then compare that to a G21 with the hottest loads. The G20 will have more recoil and more muzzle flip. No matter how physically strong you are and great your technique is you will not be able to equalize the shot to shot recovery time of these two pistols. You may feel you can but measurement by instrumentation will show you cannot.

 

[Browning]

Drive out to TX then and we'll test it out.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Browning: My ability to rapidly engage targets with a hot loaded 10mm isn't any less than a .45 ACP loaded with +P's.

It may seem so to you, but think about it: unless your grip strength and the mass of your arms and upper body are as resistive to both torque and rearward movement as a sturdy, firmly mounted machine rest, or very nearly so, that is physically impossible.

Simple physics.

The principles been true since the days of Sir Isaac Newton, and known to me since I was about one fifth of the way into my engineering studies, back when jFK was a life member of the NRA. The only thing new is the 10MM.

Do try it with a timer, and a witness.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Drive out to TX then and we'll test it out.

If I have to drive 1000+ miles to Dallas to prove the point I am just not interested. However, I may be willing to drive the 400+ miles to El Paso and supply the factory ammunition if we can locate a place to shoot. During the 1980s I drove several times between Phoenix and Ft. Bragg, North Carolina via I10 and I20 through Texas. While the distance from Dallas to El Paso is a longer distance, the drive is easier than Phoenix to El Paso. Sometimes I would drive non-stop from Midland or even Abilene to Phoenix. For you, a man much younger than me, who has according to your THR biography a “Mind like a steel trap and body of a Greek God”, traveling 600 miles in your home state then firing a few magazines of ammunition for time should be a physical and psychological piece of cake. If you are up for the challenge, PM me and maybe we can work out the details.

 

[Robert101]

I'm not sure I get the reason for the comparison of 45 to 10MM in shot times. Even if shot times for the 10MM do take longer, there are several reasons to utilize the more powerful caliber for self-defense. I mean if the only criteria is the lowest shot time than why are we not all shooting 22LR handguns? Yes, I do get that meeting minimal penetration criteria is important. I was only making a weak attempt at satire. By the way, I'm not even considering driving 5 miles to prove my satire'ish point of view.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Robert101: I'm not sure I get the reason for the comparison of 45 to 10MM in shot times.

That's an excellent question. I'll try to address it adequately.

In most cases, a self defense shooting requires shooting very quickly at a moving target. And because unless something vital is damaged the assailant will not be stopped unless he just gives up, it will likely require more than one shot--all fired quickly--to stop him.

That is true with any handgun that one can carry concealed.

Does that help?

Even if shot times for the 10MM do take longer, there are several reasons to utilize the more powerful caliber for self-defense.

Yes, if the assailant is a bear, or is shooting at you from behind armor, .....

 

[Nom de Forum]

Yes, if the assailant is a bear, or is shooting at you from behind armor, .....

The chances of being shoot at by an assailant are small enough that most people who could legally carry a gun do not. The chances of being assailed by a bear or an assailant wearing body armor shooting at you are so small that civilians living in most of the country making that a priority in their everyday carry gun SD planning is tinfoil hat territory. BTW 10mms making big dents in clay protected by a CIII vest is not a reliable indication of potential effectiveness in incapacitating an armored assailant.

 

[Browning]

If I have to drive 1000+ miles to Dallas to prove the point I am just not interested. However, I may be willing to drive the 400+ miles to El Paso and supply the factory ammunition if we can locate a place to shoot. During the 1980s I drove several times between Phoenix and Ft. Bragg, North Carolina via I10 and I20 through Texas. While the distance from Dallas to El Paso is a longer distance, the drive is easier than Phoenix to El Paso. Sometimes I would drive non-stop from Midland or even Abilene to Phoenix. For you, a man much younger than me, who has according to your THR biography a “Mind like a steel trap and body of a Greek God”, traveling 600 miles in your home state then firing a few magazines of ammunition for time should be a physical and psychological piece of cake. If you are up for the challenge, PM me and maybe we can work out the details.

Don't like my biography.

Have a video camera and a shot timer, problem is they're both on my phone. I don't know anyone else with a shot timer. I also just checked and turning up videos to max volume they aren't loud enough to engage it if I downloaded them and tried to engage the shot time after the fact using the video.

I'm not driving farther than the local range. To me this is just a net discussion and there's no ego investment in it for me. I am willing to put in the time and the ammo. I don't care, it's an excuse to go shooting and test it out on the clock. To me the time on a Swenson 1911 govt shooting +P 185 grn Rem GS and a 3rd Gen Glock 20SF shooting Underwood or Hornady 180 grn seemed exactly the same.

Can try getting a buddy to go and downloading a free shot timer on his phone and recording it with mine.

Open to solutions. Don't mind testing it out and posting the results though.

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I'm betting you wouldn't want to be on the other end of that vest though would you?

Also a shooter doesn't have to be behind armor, could be something as simple as a old Ford truck bed tailgate.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Don't like my biography.

Have a video camera and a shot timer, problem is they're both on my phone. I don't know anyone else with a shot timer. I also just checked and turning up videos to max volume they aren't loud enough to engage it if I downloaded them and tried to engage the shot time after the fact using the video.

I'm not driving farther than the local range. To me this is just a net discussion and there's no ego investment in it for me. I am willing to put in the time and the ammo. I don't care, it's an excuse to go shooting and test it out on the clock. To me the time on a Swenson 1911 govt shooting +P 185 grn Rem GS and a 3rd Gen Glock 20SF shooting Underwood or Hornady 180 grn seemed exactly the same.

Can try getting a buddy to go and downloading a free shot timer on his phone and recording it with mine.

Open to solutions. Don't mind testing it out and posting the results though.

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I'm betting you wouldn't want to be on the other end of that vest though would you?

Also a shooter doesn't have to be behind armor, could be something as simple as a old Ford truck bed tailgate.

I like your THR biography just fine. Probably more truth than fiction for an EMT. The same was once mostly true of me.

If you do decide to test the difference between the two calibers, load selection will be critical for valid results. There are plenty of 10mm loads that will not be anywhere near the potential for recoil the hottest loads have and consequently be in the 45acp range for recoil energy. What about if I meet you in Midland? I might be able to justify that to my wife as a trip to C.A.F. H.Q.

You are right I would not want to be wearing that vest! OUCH!
I think you will find good 9mm, .40, and .45 loads will penetrate a tailgate just fine. I am not disputing that with properly constructed bullets a 10mm is going to have better penetration than .40, just not enough extra penetration, armored or not, to justify its use solely for SD over the other big three SD calibers in semiautos. With an AP bullet a 9mm standard velocity penetrates armor that 10mm non-AP bullets cannot.

 

[Browning]

Well . . . Keep in mind I wrote that 7 years ago at 35.

I don't mind doing the work here. I just have to lay my hands on a timer somewhere and enlist the help of a buddy and bring the guns to the range. Already have the ammo and all I have to do is bring the guns and shoot. That's not that big of a deal.

Any lines on just a cheap shot timer that'll just work?

 

[JTQ]

Call the local IDPA organization. They probably have dozens of them. Heck they'd probably volunteer to help with the test. You could probably get a dozen guys show up with their .45's and 10mm to give additional comparisons.

 

[Jorzac]

What about the video on YouTube with the guy shooting the 9,45 and the 10? All shot as fast as possible, all on target and all 3 damn near as fast. I challenge you to tell the difference. Seems hes already done the work. So browning, let me ask you this... Does a typical 1911 shooting 230 gr, moderately fast bullets recoil more or less than my g20 shooting 135 gr at 1600 fps?

 

[Teachu2]

We are actually in agreement (I think) if we say that SOME people can get follow up shots quickly and accurately with the 10mm, and SOME people can't. I know examples of both.

Perceived recoil is subjective, and our personal thresholds of endurance can and do change. When I was younger, I used to enjoy shooting hot loads out of a 2 1/8" Model 66. My Model 28 endured loads that would often prove it's strength by various signs of over-pressure loading. When I was young, half a brain was a good day, so I guess I'd have reamed a 9 if I'd owned one of those (then) puny little sissy guns. The local gunsmith used me as a range stooge, and there wasn't anything I wouldn't shoot.

To really compare cartridges, it's best to eliminate as many other variables as possible. For comparing .45acp and 10mm, I had the ideal pistol. I found a guy that was moving and wanted to sell a Colt Series 80 Government .45acp with a fitted Delta Elite upper in 10mm. He wanted slightly less than the cost of the stainless Government new, and he threw in about 1400 rounds of 10mm factory loads, everything from PMC to Buffalo Bore. Pretty nice setup for comparing, as most variables became constants.

I discovered pretty quickly that the 10mm had more perceived recoil in the hotter loads than the hotter .45acp loads did. Not too much to handle, but more than I wanted to shoot all day. No doubt about it having superior power, but it was power I didn't need at the time. The gunsmith at the range nearly broke his arm going for his wallet when I offered to sell him the 10mm slide setup and the three mags that matched. He was happy, I was thrilled with the final cost of the .45acp.

Fast forward about four years, and I moved to an area where bears, bobcats, and mountain lions are not uncommon. I had also been drinking the Glock beverage, and so I added a G20 to my collection. Shooting it back-to-back with a G21 confirms that it has more perceived recoil, but again not excessive. Softer with the G20 than the 1911, but so is .45acp.

I've always advocated carrying the largest gun that you can conceal effectively, engage quickly, and shoot accurately and rapidly. It then becomes a judgment call for each individual as to what is effective enough concealment, quick enough presentation, fine enough accuracy, and rapid enough followups. And those factors may well change as time goes by.

I didn't even own a 9mm until I was past 50 years old. Now I often carry one.

 

[Teachu2]

What about the video on YouTube with the guy shooting the 9,45 and the 10? All shot as fast as possible, all on target and all 3 damn near as fast. I challenge you to tell the difference. Seems hes already done the work. So browning, let me ask you this... Does a typical 1911 shooting 230 gr, moderately fast bullets recoil more or less than my g20 shooting 135 gr at 1600 fps?

I perceive more recoil in the G20 than the G21, both with "hot" loads.

 

[JTQ]

To really compare cartridges, it's best to eliminate as many other variables as possible.

I agree.

I think Browning is planning on comparing a 1911 with a Glock. I think that may be more variable than would scientific.

 

[Kleanbore]

Have to wonder how shooting for combat accuracy at a target moving fast might differ from bracing and trying to shoot fast at the same place....

I think it is worth noting that at one time, Rob Pincus believed that the .45 ACP was an ideal defensive cartridge. He later decided that the .40 S&W was better. He now recommends the 9MM.

His reasons are twofold: capacity and shooting speed.

This excerpt is relevant to the shooting speed aspect:

If we are planning on needing more than one shot and we know that we want to stop the bad guy as soon as possible, then it makes sense that we should seek the fastest string of fire possible. Physics dictates that the 9mm is going to be a more manageable round (lower recoil) than the .40 S&W out of any particular firearm. So, no matter how much you train and how much you practice, everyone should be able to shoot a string of Combat Accurate 9mm rounds faster than they can fire a string of .40.​

(Emphasis added).

As I said before, physics.

And, of course, the same thing applides to the comparison best wen the .45 and the 10MM, or to a comparison between the .40 and the 10MM.


http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002168437.cfm?x=bk1b43S%2Cbj7QPlVl%2Cw

 

[Browning]

What about the video on YouTube with the guy shooting the 9,45 and the 10? All shot as fast as possible, all on target and all 3 damn near as fast. I challenge you to tell the difference. Seems hes already done the work.

That's a good idea. Anyone have a shot timer that'll actually trip off video? Mine won't.

I'm still curious as to what my actual shot times would be though.

So browning, let me ask you this... Does a typical 1911 shooting 230 gr, moderately fast bullets recoil more or less than my g20 shooting 135 gr at 1600 fps?

I don't know, never shot the way lighter grain 10mm fodder.

Mostly 180 gr and above except for some 150 gr. Double Tap that's barky, but that doesn't recoil like the super heavy Buffalo Bore I've fired. Based off grain weight I'm guessing the .45/230 gr recoil would be more.

That's why I was suggesting that the grain weights be essentially the same 180 for 10mil and 185 for the .45 ACP.

If someone's going to insist on using 220 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast vs 230 gr. +P Hornady or something like that then my times are obviously going to be longer with the Buffalo Bore.

Not looking to do powder puff loads on the 10mil end, more like Hornady, Underwood (if I can find some) or that DT.
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As to taking the 1911 out of the equation it's what I have to work with and what I was talking about before.

 

[Potatohead]

Capacity???

Uhhh.....10mm and .40 are the same diameter.

The .40 is based on the 10mm and is basically just a shorter case......so there is no difference in "capacity".

Well I reckon I'll take my crow medium well then

 

[Jorzac]

Browning the 135 gr Underwood is hardly "powderpuff" loads. That's my carry round. 135 gr Nosler JHP @ 1600 fps. The idea being massive expansion, minimal to no overpenetration. The beauty of the 10mm is its versatility. I can shoot what is (IMO) a perfect self defense load all the way up to 220 hardcast lead bullets for hunting the heaviest boned animals out there. Oh and I can also shoot 180 XTP Hornady for deer hunting. Show me another caliber where I can get that much variety and also carry 18 RDS in a controllable, concealable package. Doesn't exist.