natedog
Member
Why am I always hearing people saying "An 870 is what all 1300s hope to be when they grow up"? Is the 870 all that superior in design? Is it at all better than the 1300, or is it just personal preferance?
Why 870 over 1300?
- Thread starter natedog
- Start date
- Status
romulus
Member
For me it's the materials...I'd be more than willing to consider the 1300 if the receiver were steel rather than aluminum.
Romulus said, "For me it's the materials...I'd be more than willing to consider the 1300 if the receiver were steel rather than aluminum." I see your point and generally agree but many quality firearms, including shotguns, use alloy receivers. If the bolt locks up with the barrel extension ala Win 1300 and is not stressing the receiver in any way, why is the alloy receiver inferior? Asking because I, too, am interested in exactly why the 870 is superior. I'm mulling over my next purchase. I like them both but have to say the 1300 is pretty smooth.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
The 1300's a darn good shotgun. The 870 has the well earned rep of working no matter what. Longevity seems to be well over 100K target rounds, maybe 75K(WEG) if the diet includes the heavies like goose and buck loads.
The 1300, compared shot to shot with the 870 will probably wear out sooner. However, I doubt one shooter can do it.
And to be objective, I've been shooting 870s since the late 50's.
All I can say is, get what you want to. The software is much more important than the hardware...
The 1300, compared shot to shot with the 870 will probably wear out sooner. However, I doubt one shooter can do it.
And to be objective, I've been shooting 870s since the late 50's.
All I can say is, get what you want to. The software is much more important than the hardware...
The 1300 and it's predecessor the 1200 replaced the legendary Model 12 which was becoming expensive to manufacture and was pricing itself out of the market. When the 1200 was introduced in the 1960's it was a real let down compared to the Model 12.
During the same period, Remington was in the second decade of producing the 870 Wingmaster. It replaced the Model 12 as the standard of excellence for pump guns.
However, the cost of producing the Wingmaster was going up so Remington brought in the Express in the late 80's. It's the same gun but not nearly as well put together as the Wingmaster of a generation ago. Since the mid 90's Remington quality control isn't what it used to be and IMHO Winchester has improved the quality of its guns.
My bias is towards the 870 because I've owned one for years and shotgun prejudices die hard. That said, I don't think the current Remington production guns are any better than 1300 particularly with that stupid locking safety and the dimpled magazine. If I had to buy a pump gun today it might well be a 1300.
Paul
During the same period, Remington was in the second decade of producing the 870 Wingmaster. It replaced the Model 12 as the standard of excellence for pump guns.
However, the cost of producing the Wingmaster was going up so Remington brought in the Express in the late 80's. It's the same gun but not nearly as well put together as the Wingmaster of a generation ago. Since the mid 90's Remington quality control isn't what it used to be and IMHO Winchester has improved the quality of its guns.
My bias is towards the 870 because I've owned one for years and shotgun prejudices die hard. That said, I don't think the current Remington production guns are any better than 1300 particularly with that stupid locking safety and the dimpled magazine. If I had to buy a pump gun today it might well be a 1300.
Paul
romulus
Member
Gary A, it's purely an aesthetic consideration...It's wood and steel now for me. Aluminum is not a pleasant metal no matter how you slice it or anodize it.
natedog
Member
I have on old model 12, made in 1953. do you think a 1300 would compare to it? or would old world steel and wood win over alloy and synthetic? do you think the workmanship/ craftmanship would compare, or would i only be able to find this in a $1000+ shotgun? benelli comes to mind....
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Nate, the 12 is intricate machinery,smooth, well made and super rugged.
The 1300 is well made from stamped parts, and may possibly not be as durable. The differences will not be obvious for decades, if not generations.
Model 12s have a "Cult" following. Good as the 1300 is, I doubt it'll ever have much of a Cult.
In any case, both are good, using shotguns...
The 1300 is well made from stamped parts, and may possibly not be as durable. The differences will not be obvious for decades, if not generations.
Model 12s have a "Cult" following. Good as the 1300 is, I doubt it'll ever have much of a Cult.
In any case, both are good, using shotguns...
I think that because the Remington 870 has served so many people for so long (Dave McC et al) that there is going to be a justified bias towards the gun.
Justified because the gun is reliable, dependable and does everything asked of it.
Is it a good gun? Yes.
Is it a great gun? Yes.
Is a Winchester 1300 worse or better?
When I was selecting a shotgun I wanted to buy something that I didn't have to mess with. I didn't want to add mag extensions or sling mounts. I liked the idea of an aluminum receiver. (There are just too many quality firearms that use aluminum receivers or frames to worry about the metal).
The 1300 Defender I purchased came stock with 8 rounds capacity (which suited me rather than having to remove dimples and purchase extensions), sling mounts, and Hi-Viz bead sight. It fit me and felt good. I tried an 870 Wingmaster and a 1300 Defender and preferred the pump action of the 1300, the Speed Pump feature due to the rotary bolt seemed very smooth and very, very fast (the company claims 3 shots in less than half a second!!) I also preferred the location of the safety (trigger finger extended same as pistol rather than the on the 870) The action release being located rear of the trigger group also means not having to shift hand firing positions for me.
There is an abundance of accessories available for the 1300 e.g. sidesaddle shell carriers and forearm lights, at the same price as for the 870 so that was not an issue either.
I have over 2500 shells through my 1300 Defender and have not had any problems at all. The last trip to the range it sucked down over 1000 shells with out being cleaned and functioned flawlessly. There is no excess wear in the receiver to cause any worry about the aluminum, as the rotary bolt design locking completely with the barrel places no stress on the receiver.
Another little piece of info is that the Winchester 1300 is actually manufactured by U.S. Repeating Arms Co. and as such is made under license from the famous military manufacturer FN Herstal. FN is world renowned for there excellence if firearms manufacturing.
Check out this link to the FN Herstal Police Shotgun
Winchester 1300 Defender
So the reality of which is superior comes down to which features you like best.
I paid just $239 plus tax for my 1300 Defender NIB and couldn't be happier, the Rem 870 was the same price but I would have had to add the accessories I detailed earlier.
So for a lightweight, strong, reliable pump action the FN (Winchester) 1300 rotary bolt makes a lot of sense.
Well I like mine anyway
Regards,
HS/LD
Justified because the gun is reliable, dependable and does everything asked of it.
Is it a good gun? Yes.
Is it a great gun? Yes.
Is a Winchester 1300 worse or better?
When I was selecting a shotgun I wanted to buy something that I didn't have to mess with. I didn't want to add mag extensions or sling mounts. I liked the idea of an aluminum receiver. (There are just too many quality firearms that use aluminum receivers or frames to worry about the metal).
The 1300 Defender I purchased came stock with 8 rounds capacity (which suited me rather than having to remove dimples and purchase extensions), sling mounts, and Hi-Viz bead sight. It fit me and felt good. I tried an 870 Wingmaster and a 1300 Defender and preferred the pump action of the 1300, the Speed Pump feature due to the rotary bolt seemed very smooth and very, very fast (the company claims 3 shots in less than half a second!!) I also preferred the location of the safety (trigger finger extended same as pistol rather than the on the 870) The action release being located rear of the trigger group also means not having to shift hand firing positions for me.
There is an abundance of accessories available for the 1300 e.g. sidesaddle shell carriers and forearm lights, at the same price as for the 870 so that was not an issue either.
I have over 2500 shells through my 1300 Defender and have not had any problems at all. The last trip to the range it sucked down over 1000 shells with out being cleaned and functioned flawlessly. There is no excess wear in the receiver to cause any worry about the aluminum, as the rotary bolt design locking completely with the barrel places no stress on the receiver.
Another little piece of info is that the Winchester 1300 is actually manufactured by U.S. Repeating Arms Co. and as such is made under license from the famous military manufacturer FN Herstal. FN is world renowned for there excellence if firearms manufacturing.
Check out this link to the FN Herstal Police Shotgun
Winchester 1300 Defender
So the reality of which is superior comes down to which features you like best.
I paid just $239 plus tax for my 1300 Defender NIB and couldn't be happier, the Rem 870 was the same price but I would have had to add the accessories I detailed earlier.
So for a lightweight, strong, reliable pump action the FN (Winchester) 1300 rotary bolt makes a lot of sense.
Well I like mine anyway
Regards,
HS/LD
JohnBT
Member
Would I want to pole a boat through the mud with an aluminum gun? Nah. Would I want to paddle a boat with an aluminum gun? Nope. Would I want to use an aluminum gun for a club? No thank you.
And I can't believe they used a model number with a 13 in it. Bad luck all the way around. Just kidding I think.
John
P.S. - And please stop mentioning the Model 12 in the same post with an 870 or 1300. It should have it's own forum.
And I can't believe they used a model number with a 13 in it. Bad luck all the way around. Just kidding I think.
John
P.S. - And please stop mentioning the Model 12 in the same post with an 870 or 1300. It should have it's own forum.
Controls and preference....
That's why I chose the 870. the 870 fit me pretty well, and the controls are right were I like 'em. The steel receiver is another factor for me. My brother has a 1300 and he likes it just fine. I won't shoot it because I'm so used to the 870, I don't want anything to throw off my habits. The 1300 is a great gun for the people that choose it.
That's why I chose the 870. the 870 fit me pretty well, and the controls are right were I like 'em. The steel receiver is another factor for me. My brother has a 1300 and he likes it just fine. I won't shoot it because I'm so used to the 870, I don't want anything to throw off my habits. The 1300 is a great gun for the people that choose it.
natedog
Member
Now I understand what Dave meant when he said that there's a cult following Model 12s....
PATH
Member
I have two 1300's in Full Advantage Camo. I have the Turkey 1300 and the Deer 1300 with rifled barrel. Never had a problem with them and they shoot fine. I know you are going to ask...Why did you buy another 1300 instead of another barrel. Well that is a long story but suffice to say I am happy the way things turned out!
Romulus - thanks, that's an answer that makes perfect sense to me. One nice thing about pumps is they really aren't expensive compared to SxS or O/U's or rifles or even most pistols so it's a bit easier to indulge and try different things to see how they work out.
JohnBT
Member
I don't even own a Model 12.
There were more than 2 million made between 1912 and 1980.
When was the last time you saw one for sale?
It's not because they fell apart.
John
There were more than 2 million made between 1912 and 1980.
When was the last time you saw one for sale?
It's not because they fell apart.
John
blades67
Member
I've seen a couple of Model 12's for sale in the last few months.
I prefer the 1300 to the 870 because the action is smoother, yet feels tighter.
The action on my 1300 is smooth enough that I can load a round into the magazine, and while holding the gun with only one hand with a firing grip (safety on, finger outside the triggerguard), release the carrier allowing the action to open, ejecting a shotshell from the magazine onto the elevator, then chamber the shell with a forward thrust. (Gun level and pointed down range.) My 1300 will also eject the empty hull after firing if I keep my hand off the pump, all I have to do then is push the pump forward to load the next round.
My "stock as a stove" 1300 can, with 100% reliability, load, fire and eject any shotshell from the 1" Minishell to 3" Magnums. 870's choke on the Minishells without some modification. The 1300 gives me more home defense ammo options than the 870.
More aftermarket products are available for the 870 primarily because it is used by more police departments. (Cops can break ReBar if left unsupervised, what chance does an 870 stand?
) That's why the 870 has so many aftermarket parts.
I prefer the 1300 to the 870 because the action is smoother, yet feels tighter.
The action on my 1300 is smooth enough that I can load a round into the magazine, and while holding the gun with only one hand with a firing grip (safety on, finger outside the triggerguard), release the carrier allowing the action to open, ejecting a shotshell from the magazine onto the elevator, then chamber the shell with a forward thrust. (Gun level and pointed down range.) My 1300 will also eject the empty hull after firing if I keep my hand off the pump, all I have to do then is push the pump forward to load the next round.
My "stock as a stove" 1300 can, with 100% reliability, load, fire and eject any shotshell from the 1" Minishell to 3" Magnums. 870's choke on the Minishells without some modification. The 1300 gives me more home defense ammo options than the 870.
More aftermarket products are available for the 870 primarily because it is used by more police departments. (Cops can break ReBar if left unsupervised, what chance does an 870 stand?
) That's why the 870 has so many aftermarket parts.SpecialForces
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 2
Seems that the 1300 having an aluminum reciever is a problem with some on here. I own a Francci 20 guage with aluminum reciever that is 60 years old and still shooting just fine. It, like my 1300 is very light, which is a plus, not to mention the difference in price of the 870. BTW, the most reliable assault weapon in the world today is the AK-47 and is made of stamped parts..
Last edited:
evbutler462
Member
The feed throat on those Winchesters is a pain to change out. You'll never change one on the 870. I sold my post-1964 Winchester shotguns of the 1200-1500 design due to the flimsy parts.
41magsnub
Member
I own both and and prefer my 1300 over the wingmaster. It is lighter and the controls on the 870 are all backwards for me. It comes from learning to shoot with a Win Model 270 .22 which has the same manual of arms as the winchester shotguns.
MCgunner
Member
If that were the case, it'd then be a heavy pig just like the 870.
Actually, I think the 870 koolaid drinkers just like to put down every other shotgun on earth. I can't say the 1300 has any advantages over the 870, really. I don't really care about what the receiver is made out of, above quip not-with-standing. Any of these guns will outlast me and the aluminum receivers are lighter, give me a little better swing with less mass to get to the shoulder making them a tad quicker. As pumps go, I like Mossberg ergos. The Winchesters do fit me perfectly, though, right out of the box without any shimming. Shimming ain't a big deal, though.
6 of one, half dozen of the other, I say. I like 'em all, just some better'n others. My bias tends to be for waterfowl hunting, too, as that's what most of my hunting centers around, though I do hunt other birds and animals. I hunted with a wingmaster for years. I found Mossbergs work better for me, especially being a lefty. I did get the safety modded to left hand on my Winchester, but I do prefer the tang safety the Mossberg uses a lot better. All my shotguns except the winchester and the two single shots (hammer guns) have tang safeties. Of course, two of 'em are hammerless doubles.
My next shotgun will most likely be an O/U, so that one will be a tang safety, too. Might be a BPS 10 first, steel receiver, for goose hunting. Weight is welcome on a 10. The BPS is the perfect lefty gun, the perfect ergos.MCgunner
Member
I'd never buy a model 12 to hunt with. Would not be steel shot compatible. That's almost all I shoot anymore, due to these things called game laws. Breaking a game law can put you in prison faster than committing murder.
I guess, if you could afford 1500 bucks for a very used pump gun, Bismuth shot at 5 bucks a round wouldn't be a big barrier.
I guess, if you could afford 1500 bucks for a very used pump gun, Bismuth shot at 5 bucks a round wouldn't be a big barrier.
Aw, c'mon don't be a cheapskate and get yourself a nice wooden oar...
Anyway, neither the 870 or the 1300 have double extractors, which may facilitate a failure-to-extract jam if a rusty or dirty shell is chambered (unlike Mossbergs). I like the 1300 better due to the action; it seems faster and smoother. The 870 has more aftermarket support. One is heavier than the other for a given barrel length (guess which)... are you going to carry it a lot or shoot it a lot, perhaps both?
At the end of the day they will both do the exact same thing, with the exact same fanfare... it is a matter of personal preference.
ATAShooter
Member
This is a 1200 Trap bought at the Grand in 1964. My Father was the original owner. It has over 275,000 rounds put thru it and has been crushing targets every week since '64. The way you see it, is the way Dad bought it. It has never been redone, nor repaired. Still has the original Winchester recoil pad on it. Although alot of folks didn't care for the alloy receiver, I think it would take alot of ones life to try to wear it out.
Last edited:
SSN Vet
Member
speed pump
1300s unlock immediately when the trigger is pulled and can be cycled "wicked fast"
Winchester quality bombed when the union took over the plant and after FN dumped major money into New Haven and still couldn't turn a profit they shut it down.
Unfortunately, they were contractually obliged to not produce the M70, M94 and M1300 at any other plant for a number of years.
That's changing, and the new M70s coming out of the FN plant in N.C. are reportedly some of the best ever produced.
FN already makes their combat shotgun (which if I understand correctly, is identical to the 1300 combat).
I have an 80s vintage 1300 DLX and it is a sweet shotgun. Very nicely finished Walnut and blueing.
I can't get into bead blasted and birch 870s.
Now a new Wingmaster with the LC barrel. That would be sweet.... sweet and pricey, but sweet!
1300s unlock immediately when the trigger is pulled and can be cycled "wicked fast"
Winchester quality bombed when the union took over the plant and after FN dumped major money into New Haven and still couldn't turn a profit they shut it down.
Unfortunately, they were contractually obliged to not produce the M70, M94 and M1300 at any other plant for a number of years.
That's changing, and the new M70s coming out of the FN plant in N.C. are reportedly some of the best ever produced.
FN already makes their combat shotgun (which if I understand correctly, is identical to the 1300 combat).
I have an 80s vintage 1300 DLX and it is a sweet shotgun. Very nicely finished Walnut and blueing.
I can't get into bead blasted and birch 870s.
Now a new Wingmaster with the LC barrel. That would be sweet.... sweet and pricey, but sweet!
- Status
