Why a Shotgun for Home Defense?

[wnycollector]

Last year I was going to sell an old 16 ga SxS coach gun I had laying around in order to finance a new pistol purchase. My wife saw me getting ready to leave the house with it and asked where I was going with the shotgun...so I told her. Her reply was to go and put the shotgun back in the safe and just go out and buy the pistol I wanted Her rationale was simple...the SxS was "idiot proof" and if there was a problem in HER house she was going to grab that shotgun! She is a pretty decent shot with a pistol but is just more comfortable with a shotgun in a high stress situation!

 

[dispatch55126]

which causes 'undue' suffering. Ie. it doesnt kill people as quick as it should.

Remember too that the military is restricted by the Hauge Convention and possibly the 1980 Conventions. "Undue suffering" is an oxymoron when you look at the terminal performance of 5.56 and 5.45x39, but its still there.

Also, don't forget the WWI trench sweepers. There's a reason why they loved shotguns going into enemy trenches.

 

[LTB15J]

the hague convention is the reason i brought it up. not geneva..

although its not always abided by; anyone who's been there knows its more of an unspoken thing than a posted rule ; since as you said its kind of an oxy moron

even hollow points are often still widely used in service pistols. dont believe anyone who says they arent being used, they are

 

[357wheelgunner]

Well, tell you what - in "close quarters" like home defense - I wouldn't want to stop a 12-guage load of birdshot . Ask any medical trauma person, from EMT to surgeon, what it would be like to deal with one of THOSE wounds.

I spent some time in an ER when I was doing my clinicals on the ambulance. I specifically asked about shotgun wounds.

I was told that it depends on what the shotgun is loaded with. They'd seen people who blew the roof of their mouth, and sinuses, and sometimes the front of their face off with birdshot. Most of them live. They had a lot of disfigured survivors of self inflicted birdshot wounds.

When people were shot by others with birdshot it made nasty looking, superficial wounds. Yeah, the ER people don't want to mess with it, all they can really do is wash or pull all of the pellets out and put gauze over the hamburger. Short of an infection setting in, birdshot really isn't very dangerous. Depending on the range, even an abdominal shot, where no bone is present to stop the tiny pelets, the pellets usually didn't even penetrate the muscle walls. Chest shots looked nasty, but after hitting ribs the pellets just kind of spread out across the ribs and don't usually penetrate deep enough to hit heart or lungs.

Please, talk to an EMT, but make sure that they know the difference between buck and birdshot. You'll get different answers from a liberal EMT who thinks that all guns should be banned "because they hurt people", and a shooter EMT who knows the difference between buckshot and birdshot.

 

[jjohnson]

Buckshot vs Birdshot

I didn't mean at all to suggest that birdshot is a smart idea for home defense. That's just stupid in my mind. I'm ex military, LE, and paramedic. My choice for shotgun is #4 Buck for within the confines of a house, and have no objection to 00 if that's what's at hand.

Yep, birdshot wounds tend to be superficial - but at, say, 12 feet, they tend to be rather extensive. The point I was trying to make is that the shotgun is better than a handgun for "indoors" range even with a poor selection of load.

 

[Jeff F]

Remember too that the military is restricted by the Hague Convention

the Hague convention is the reason i brought it up. not Geneva..

I don't think the US ever signed the Hague convention. So its not binding we just chose to kind of follow it.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

My wife can't hit anything with a pistol; but with a shotgun she can easily hit targets at household distances.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Hello,
To the posters question = a shotgun is a GREAT anti-person weapon. Across a normal size bedroom , 10 yards, you will have about a fist size group with almost ANY LOAD. I keep my pump SG loaded so the first round I pump is a #4 birdshot , the next three rounds are OO buck and the last two rds. are Slugs. Across a room , the #4 birdshot to the head or chest WILL STOP ANYBODY long enough for me to rack the pump for a 2nd shot if needed , the next three rds. of OO buckshot is "just in case" and the last two slugs are in case I have to shoot thru my refridgerator , stove or a car door !!!! NO HANDGUN can be as versital as a SG. When the police know there is gunplay , 99.9% will grap a shotgun and not their handgun. As far as to asking a EMT about birdshot --- I know a Chicago Tac.Sgt. and he has showed me photos of DEAD people that were shot at close range with Birdshot -- at under 10 yards it looked like a Claymore mine went off inside them from the autiopsy photos -- sorry for the mis-spelling .
I own WAY over a dozen firearms and the only ones that are kept loaded are my 12ga. pump and my custom Colt Gold Cup .45acp.

 

[Bob M.]

12GA = The King of Home Protection. Period.

 

[Roman2in]

I personally favor a shotgun, however, a shotgun has one big disadvantage that makes me keep pondering whether I should switch to a handgun or a rifle: overpenetration.

Yes, it's true, buckshot is a much weaker penetrator than a larger metal jacketed bullet. However, each one of the 9 8.3mm pellets has enough power to go thought the entire apartment complex. Yes, a rifle bullet will go much further, but what are the chances that one tiny bullet will accidentally hit someone else? (especially when you take into account that rifle bullet quickly loses it's energy after it hits any obstacle, because it starts tumbling) With the buckshot, however, you have a quickly spreading patten that penetrates one wall after another.

In other words, with a shotgun, if you do have to shoot in the direction of another apartment, chances are high that you will hit someone innocent in case you miss the BG.

 

[Girodin]

- Can shoot it with one hand, leaving the other free for cellphone/flashlight.

I prefer a weapon mounted light for HD. I dont want to start a weapon mounted light debate however. As for the phone you don'd have a tactical blue tooth at the ready? I am of course just kidding about the latter. That said would prefer quickly take up a position to cover the stairs while someone else calls 911. If that is not an option or not needed because I am alone I would likely hunker down behind my bed with the shotgun pointed at the locked door and call 911. If someone comes through the door the probability of a hit would be extremely high even with one hand. Higher than that with a pistol with one hand (speaking for me personally) and I would likely just drop the phone and use two hands.

If one handed operation is a must, perhaps in order to carry a very small child. I would still rather have one of my bullpup rifles. They can both be fired very easily and accurately with only one hand. More so than a pistol IMO. The one has a 42 round magazine and fires a more power round than most pistols. The other has a 50 round capacity.

- You can't really answer the door to strangers with a shotgun.

Here you are mistakenly assuming that A) having a pistol and shotgun are mutually exclusive and that B) because one or the other is worse for one task it should not be used for others where it is vastly superior. Besides answering the door a shotgun is a pain in the butt to lug around the house. I also like a pistol nearby because lying in bed I'd have a hell of time using my shotgun to defend against someone right on top of me. This is an area where a folding knife may be the easiest and quickest thing to deploy, I have it as an option but that doesn't mean I ought to give up the pistol or the shotgun A pistol is an important part of HD because it is easy to keep on one's person at all times. Just because I do that it doesn't mean I will (or must) sacrifice the option of a shotgun for other tasks that it is vastly superior in.

- Shotgun is harder to maneuver around hallways and corners

I wonder why swat guys don't use pistols? Now some people have have differing needs and home plans but A) I don't plan to go about clearing rooms. I plan to cover the stairs while the family congregates in one room with a locking door and then retreat to that room. If someone starts up the stairs I would greatly prefer sending 9 pellets of 00 Buck down at them or a 435 gr slug than a 115 gr 9mm projectile.

B) I do not find the length of a 18-19" barreled shotgun to be a huge problem or greatly hamper me in this area.

- You get 15+ shots with a pistol

This is assuming you have such a pistol and that you live in an area where you are not limited to 10 rounds. Even if this is the case for a person such as yourself my shotgun has a ten round magazine. Ten rounds is most likely enough for HD particularly given the effectiveness of each round and the increased hit probability of a long arm. If it is not I have a second 10 round mag ready to go. Ten rounds of 00 buck means 90 projectiles that are close to the power levels of a 9mm. 10 slugs is a level of power that is rather formidable.

I would also prefer a carbine with 30+ rounds if magazine capacity were the number one issue.

- It's much harder to try and wrestle a pistol away from someone than a shotgun

As was stated earlier this is debatable at best.

- You can keep the pistol in a small handgun safe by your bed, if you have kids. Harder to safely store a shotgun and have it ready to go.

I would rather keep it on my person. That way it is ready to go and secure from curious children. IMO it is very true that young children change the dynamics of what is safe storage. That said one could use one of a number of options to secure a long gun.

- There are more places to practice with handguns. Both of the ranges near me don't allow buckshot or slugs.

If one will practice regularly with a handgun and not a shotgun that is actually a very good reason to pick a handgun over a shotgun. The best reason mentioned in this whole thread. Being able to use your firearm well is vastly more important than what your firearm is.

A pistol may be better for your specific circumstance. I still believe that generally speaking a long arms is superior for HD. As you pointed out though and people would be well served to consider a pistol is much better for certain task and easier to keep with you. I'll better defend my self with a .380 pocket gun that I have with me than a shotgun that is on the other side of the house.

 

[Al Thompson]

I spent some time in an ER when I was doing my clinicals on the ambulance.

That's great source of some extremely valuable information, but... Dead guys don't go to the ER, they go to the morgue. So by default, ER personnel see (usually) live people and that's not a complete measure of effectivness. Not that we want people dead, we just want them to quit doing what they were doing that got them shot. Sometimes that gets them dead too.

I'm of the heavy birdshot persuasion myself. I like lead #2s for my house/my situation for a first up load. I think we get off track when we say birdshot as lots of folks think "low brass 8s".

I do know a police officer who has worked two shootings where a load of 71/2s worked - both critters DRT. Neither went to the ER........

 

[Roman2in]

ER personnel see (usually) live people and that's not a complete measure of effectivness.

That's a good point, but still, I think what we need to worry about is whether it can reliably incapacitate a bad guy, not whether it is possible to incapacitate him.

 

[Roman2in]

BTW, I read that #2 WILL penetrate walls, yet it is still not a reliable (again, incapacitation wise) round.

 

[357wheelgunner]

That's great source of some extremely valuable information, but... Dead guys don't go to the ER, they go to the morgue. So by default, ER personnel see (usually) live people and that's not a complete measure of effectivness. Not that we want people dead, we just want them to quit doing what they were doing that got them shot. Sometimes that gets them dead too.

You missed my entire point.

The ambulance had picked up plenty of people who weren't dead but had some birdshot in them. While there may be plenty of people who've died from birdshot, there are also plenty who have lived. It's not reliable for self defense.

 

[Youngster]

I personally favor a shotgun, however, a shotgun has one big disadvantage that makes me keep pondering whether I should switch to a handgun or a rifle: overpenetration.

Yes, it's true, buckshot is a much weaker penetrator than a larger metal jacketed bullet. However, each one of the 9 8.3mm pellets has enough power to go thought the entire apartment complex. Yes, a rifle bullet will go much further, but what are the chances that one tiny bullet will accidentally hit someone else? (especially when you take into account that rifle bullet quickly loses it's energy after it hits any obstacle, because it starts tumbling) With the buckshot, however, you have a quickly spreading patten that penetrates one wall after another.

In other words, with a shotgun, if you do have to shoot in the direction of another apartment (consider the situation when a BG is located in that direction, and he is pointing a gun at you or your loved ones.) chances are high that you will hit someone innocent in case you miss the BG.

Buckshot pellets tend not to penetrate far in wall materials, less so than any real anti personel load other than frangible 5.56mm, even hitting nothing but air causes them to lose a significant amount of energy very quickly.

The one thing you really have to watch out for with buckshot however is that if it hits a sufficently resistant but penetrable wall in a tight mass, the still energetic pellets will tend to "stack up" and scatter wildly throughout the space beyond like billiard balls, not good.

 

[repo]

I still think shotguns are cumbersome, outdated and over-rated. They are designed for hunting birds. Handguns are designed for self defence.

I wonder why swat guys don't use pistols?

They don't seem to use shotguns either. They all have short AR15 carbines and MP5s ("weak" pistol round). The patrol officers all seem to have AR15 carbines now too. I'm no expert but I would say they use pistols way more than shotguns.

If the question was shotgun vs anything else then I'd rather have a 10.5" AR15.

It's much harder to try and wrestle a pistol away from someone than a shotgun

As was stated earlier this is debatable at best.

Well imagine you run round a corner and bump into someone wielding a shotgun or a pistol. Which would be easier to push away/grab without getting your fingers blown off? The shotgun just has so much more to grab and get leverage with.

I would rather keep it on my person.

You sleep with a pistol on your person? I'd rather have a pistol in a quick access safe right next to the bed than have to run across the room to a big safe or mess with trigger locks or whatever keeps it safe from kids.

Anyway it's easier to shoot a handgun lying my back, lying on my front, moving quickly, while opening a door with one hand, while hiding under a bed, while hiding in a closet, while carrying someone, while feeling my way in the dark, while talking on the phone... also the faster time between shots at multiple targets.

I wouldn't ever have to shoot more than 10-20 feet in my house, I don't think the wadding would even expand yet at that range unless you had a very short barrel. I don't need a long gun to hit something at that distance. I don't see any benefit of a shotgun other than the large damage it does.

 

[mgkdrgn]

So please help me,why do ppl like it?

Big Noise

Big Holes in BG

Pattern turns near misses into hits.

 

[Youngster]

I still think shotguns are cumbersome, outdated and over-rated. They are designed for hunting birds. Handguns are designed for self defence.

Cumbersome, compared to what? They're probably the best blend of speed and hit potential you're going to find at usual social ranges.

Shotguns haven't seen the same degree of improvement over the last century as rifles and handguns, but that doesn't mean that they aren't still viable defensive weapons, as well as tending to be more versatile than the other types.

Handguns are for last ditch self defence and specialized roles, not something you use if there is a better alternative.

 

[mljdeckard]

Several reasons, but foremost, a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. The only reason we carry handguns is that carrying long guns isn't practical most of the time. No handgun round is sufficient for self-defense. When you actually have time to reach for a gun, it should be the most effective one. Not just in the home, but everywhere. I carry my 1911, but I have an SKS in the back of my truck. If I have the time, I grab the SKS. My 1911 is on the bedside table. My 870 is NEXT to the bedside table. If I have time, I will reach OVER the 1911 to grab the shotgun. It's loaded with #4 buck.

If you're thinking about close-quarters combat, If I find myself close enough to grapple with a bad guy, I want a full-size gun with a buttstock on it. You can put a tactical barrel on a shotgun. Now hold it in front of you in a firing position. Then, take a handgun, and hold it in front of you in a firing position. Not much difference, is there?

There is absolutely no guarantee that any gun or particular ammo will or won't do anything. Overpenetration, first-shot stops, anything. You can get lucky with a .22 and hit the jugular on the first shot. You can have a .223 go between ribs, miss major organs and blood vessels, fail to expand, and go through the wall behind. Handgun calibers are MORE likely to overpenetrate than most 5.56 loads. When you use buckshot in a shotgun, the energy is spread between a dozen or more pellets. (I use #4 buck, 27 .22 caliber pellets.) If you aim correctly, and PATTERN YOUR SHOTGUN so that you KNOW what the spread is, you know exactly what you are working with. By the way, spread in in-home distances is pretty small from just about any shotgun. I would rather risk a few stray .22 pellets from a shotgun than 5.56 or .45 bullets.

Long guns are arms. Handguns are backup. Period.

 

[357wheelgunner]

Several reasons, but foremost, a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. The only reason we carry handguns is that carrying long guns isn't practical most of the time. No handgun round is sufficient for self-defense. When you actually have time to reach for a gun, it should be the most effective one. Not just in the home, but everywhere. I carry my 1911, but I have an SKS in the back of my truck. If I have the time, I grab the SKS. My 1911 is on the bedside table. My 870 is NEXT to the bedside table. If I have time, I will reach OVER the 1911 to grab the shotgun. It's loaded with #4 buck.

This ^

Handguns are carried because you can. In the house there is no reason to not have a longarm accessable. If I use my handgun to defend the house, its only because it was on my hip when the door was broken in and I didn't have time to grab the shotgun.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Confidence and practical accuracy:
Because I shoot moving targets with a shotgun, at greater ranges than the distance I would shoot at within my house. If I can hit a small clay disk with a shotgun, I think I have a good chance of hitting a bad guy in my bedroom doorway from across the room (shooting from behind bed).

By contrast, I shoot larger, stationary targets with a handgun, so I am less confident with it.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[Girodin]

They don't seem to use shotguns either. They all have short AR15 carbines and MP5s ("weak" pistol round). The patrol officers all seem to have AR15 carbines now too. I'm no expert but I would say they use pistols way more than shotguns.

I'm certainly not a swat guy or anything close to it. I have two friends who are swat officers and one is a former seal. From discussions with them M4 carbines are what is used most often in their department. The point there was not about them using shotguns per se, but a long arm. If they are used in dynamic entries their length cannot hinder one that much. Hold your pistol out in front of you at the length you would fire it. It is as far out in front of you as a shotgun barrel.

That is really neither here not there however since room clearing and HD are two different tasks. Doing the former alone when you ought to be doing the second can be an immensely bad idea.

MP5s ("weak" pistol round).

It is a good thing that longer barrels don't affect the velocity of a round and thus the energy it delivers. Having an MP5 is not the same as having a 9mm pistol. That said, a 9mm out of a carbine is still much much weaker than a 12 gauge slug. Those MP5s also have select fire, civilians can use a 9 round burst in the form of 00 buck. Further it is my understanding that M4s are taking over the place of MP5s many places.

Well imagine you run round a corner and bump into someone wielding a shotgun or a pistol. Which would be easier to push away/grab without getting your fingers blown off? The shotgun just has so much more to grab and get leverage with.

I'll reiterate it is debatable. The person likely has a better hold on the shotgun that the pistol. If one can get two hands on one it is much easier to turn the pistol in towards the holders body. Again for me I don't plan on room clearing or wondering around my house in the type of situations that would cause me be holding my shotgun.

You sleep with a pistol on your person?

No I keep one on my person during the day. I keep one holstered and within reach while I'm asleep. By storage I presumed that you meant when you are not present. If I am right there why in the world would I want a self defense gun locked up in anyway?

I wouldn't ever have to shoot more than 10-20 feet in my house, I don't think the wadding would even expand yet at that range unless you had a very short barrel. I don't need a long gun to hit something at that distance.

You'd be shocked ho many people miss at those distances with a pistol. Watch some videos of shootouts. I'm not saying you would miss. Simply that people, even those with some training do miss at those ranges. A long arm provides greater probability of hits for most people.

I don't see any benefit of a shotgun other than the large damage it does.

I don't believe that is the ONLY benefit but it is the major one. Considering that if I am required to use a weapon I want the threat stopped NOW, I would say it is a big benefit.

To paraphrase an firearms instructor whose course I attended, in fact it was Corriea a moderator here. All handguns suck. The only reason we have them is because an AR15 looks funny stuffed down your pants. Pistols poke holes in people and are not nearly as effective as long arms. I believe the above to be true. If i am going to need to stop a threat give me the most firepower I can reasonably wield. For me that is shotgun or a carbine.

Train with what you are comfortable. Use what you believe will suit you the best. All weapons have trade offs and you go with what meets the requirements you privilege. For me, the greatly superior terminal ballistics and hit probability of a long arm are privileged over increased mobility. I have vacilated between shot gun and carbine ( I train with both). I plan to do a carbine course with my STG 556. I offers great mobility and one handed operation. After some more training with it and the addition of a suppressor I'm going to consider it as my HD primary. For now I go with a shotgun. A pistol might be just right for you it is not for me. I just hope that what ever weapon people plan to use they are seeking quality training with it and practicing regularly tactics and skill sets often win the day.

 

[Dave McCracken]

LBT, before I retired I had access to a govt database that I do not anymore.

At the time they listed shotguns as having a 99% one shot stop rate.

They did not differentiate by gauge, choke, load, barrel length, race, creed, or prior condition of servitude.

Even the tiny 410 packs more ME than most handgun loads, including 230 gr FMJ 45 ACP.

Sure some people survive birdshot hits, but the question is whether they were stopped from doing something unacceptable.

And, none of my "Serious" shotguns are loaded with bird shot, though there's plenty about here.

2 have 00 in them with slugs on a S/S on one, the third has 4 buck.

Bird shot can work if close enough. So does buck, but close enough with buck is measured in yards, not feet.

 

[rjsixgun]

ok here is my opinion on the topic of Shotguns for HD.
There the best and the worst thing for HD.

Reasons there the best:
Fire Power
Knock down power
Ease of use
Hard to take away during a fight

Reason why there the worst
you'll blow threw a wall
you dont live alone
You have to AIM a shotgun just as much as a rifle at close range
Shotguns wont fill the hallway with lead like on TV
You CAN NOT take a shot if there is a hostage.

Now my opinion on handguns:
Easy to store on the night stand
accurate
Knock down power (with some calibers)

Against Handguns:
Very easy to find on your night stand
Very easy to get away from a person during a hand to hand fight.

RIFLES (in pistol calibers)
sergical accurate (hell you gotta aim every HD type gun)
hard to get away from you in a fight.
Can be stored next to or under your bed out'a sight from a perp.
One shot stopping power.
You CAN take the shot during a "hostage situation"

No one gun is ideal for every HD situation, but all will blow threw dry wall walls. Befor picking an HD firearm you must evaluate your home and family, who sleeps closet to outside threats, what might happen during the threat, what is our Line of Fire Plan.

My wife and I have an "always shoot" policy, meaning that if one of us is taken hostage in or outside our home, the other "WILL FIRE" and live knowing he/she tried to save the other and it is better to die by the hand of a loved one that tried, then for both to dye helpless. Sounds grim I know but that is the way we think. we both know each others shooting skills under presure and are willing to take the shot with rifle or pistol. HD shotgun is not an option in our house.