Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
No. Here what should have been said:
Your welcome.
Why are .38 wadcutters not considered a good carry load?
- Thread starter NoirFan
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No. Here what should have been said:
Your welcome.
When it comes to self defense why compromise? Why not load up with the best self defense round you can buy and practice with something cheap that closely matches handling characteristics? I don't see why there would be any question or debate about that.
If that's any indication of your psychic or deductive abilities, I have to give you a big FAIL.
I’ve lost count of the number of deer I’ve killed with handguns, not to mention hogs, javelina, coyotes, jackrabbits, etc.
I’m retired military with 27 years service.
Try looking next time before you leap!
Exactly. If cheap softball wadcutter ammo was any good, don’t you think there’d be at least one LEO organization in the country that would issue it?
The only factory ammo I’ve seen that would be worse for SD was the USAF issue 130 gr FMJ .38 SPL stuff they handed out when I was on active duty. I was the Wing Firearms Training Officer and had the opportunity to chrono 5 rounds of that junk. It ran 577 fps and would, literally, bounce off the piece of 3/8” plywood I had my target stapled to.
With all the really good SD ammo available these days, I can’t understand why anyone would pick weak target ammo to defend his life.
Here's the specs for Winchester .38 wadcutter ammo:
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber :38 Special
Bullet Type :Lead Wadcutter
Bullet Weight :148 GR
Muzzle Energy :166 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity :710 fps
Thanks anyway. I'll pass.
Don't believe that many (if any) "LEO organizations" are still using .38 Special revolvers as issue sidearms. The wadcutter ammunition under discussion doesn't work too well in pistols...
Also those in the law enforcement business have an obligation to go after and arrest the bad guys or gals. Most of us don't.
Anyway, some folks are far more impressed with paper ballistics and jelly tests then I am. Looking back over a long lifetime I notice that today, among some groups, there is a kind of faith that if one has a certain cartridge/caliber/bullet combination, they will somehow always be the winner in any shooting confrontation. However there doesn't seem to be any "real life" evidence to support this beyond "bigger is better," and we've known that even before the LaGarde - Thompson tests that were conducted in 1903-'04 confirmed it.
But larger cartridges usually require a larger/heavier platform, and as a practical matter most of us may not want to lug a big iron around unless special circumstances dictate it would be wise.
Since I put more faith in marksmanship and bullet placement then I do in what looks best in jelly, and I usually (but not always) tend to carry a small pocket revolver, I tend to go for less recoil and adequate penetration at the short ranges at which I am likely to have to defend myself. I am well aware that years ago before our supposedly “high performance ammunition” was available people went about successfully defending themselves with ballistic performance that today’s cartridge junkies wouldn’t give a second look. In the majority of current shooting incidents many if not most are still using “ordinary” ammunition.
But the bottom line is still, “use whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy." The confidence factor has some importance too. I just suspect that too much of it's misplaced.
451 Detonics
Member
When they were using the 38 revolvers they didn't pick the full wadcutter then either.
I believe in using the best I can get my hands on to defend my family...they are more than worth it.
Guillermo
member
REALLY?! I seem to remember my father, chief of police of a small city, did not mandate any specific ammo for his officers.
He carried wadcutters as did many of his officers.
Since all this happened before the internet I guess it didn't happen.
And just what is the best?
a "high tech" hollow point that doesn't really expand?
my family is worth more (to me)
and that which I can shoot the best is the best
Bullet placement is king
22-rimfire
Member
Wadcutters make nice round holes on paper. But who cares when it comes to self defense. But if that is all I had on hand, I wouldn't necessarily rush out to the store to buy some handy dandy HP's. I would choose a HP for self defense and I don't particularly believe it makes much difference which brand you choose as long as you can hit what you are aiming at.
I carry Magtech HB wadcutters in an old .32 S&W-L Forehand Arms.
I actually found some SJHP that Magtech made, haven't tested them though.
Don't think I'd carry them although they are rated hotter (about 100 fps hotter which makes it a wopping ~800 fps!
).
If I was carrying a 9mm/.357 Magnum or higher I would opt for hollowpoints, the risk for overpentration greatly increases with those rounds.
Anything lower FMJ/LRN/HBWC or whatever; Penetration is King.
In a .38 I'd want some HP that can penetrate +12 inches in gel, most I see only penetrates around 10 inches.
I actually found some SJHP that Magtech made, haven't tested them though.
Don't think I'd carry them although they are rated hotter (about 100 fps hotter which makes it a wopping ~800 fps!
).If I was carrying a 9mm/.357 Magnum or higher I would opt for hollowpoints, the risk for overpentration greatly increases with those rounds.
Anything lower FMJ/LRN/HBWC or whatever; Penetration is King.
In a .38 I'd want some HP that can penetrate +12 inches in gel, most I see only penetrates around 10 inches.
pete950,
In the OP, NoirFan asked about “.38 special target wadcutters” and stated that one of the advantages was that they were cheap.
Your Buffalo Bore ammo runs 140 fps faster than factory ammo and retails for $26.66 per 20.
Not target ammo.
Not cheap.
In the OP, NoirFan asked about “.38 special target wadcutters” and stated that one of the advantages was that they were cheap.
Your Buffalo Bore ammo runs 140 fps faster than factory ammo and retails for $26.66 per 20.
Not target ammo.
Not cheap.
snooperman
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My 2 brothers were in Law Enforcement during..
1950s-1970s and carried wadcutters while on duty. At age 71 , I still remember those days when that was justabout what most people used, including myself , for hunting game too. They work effectively if shot placement is there.
1950s-1970s and carried wadcutters while on duty. At age 71 , I still remember those days when that was justabout what most people used, including myself , for hunting game too. They work effectively if shot placement is there.
bluetopper
Member
Hard cast lead wadcutters are devastating out of a 357 at full house magnum velocities.
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snooperman
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My friend , I did not say small game..
I have been hunting on my farmland for about 60 years and have killed more deer and wild boar than I can count . And yes, many were killed with wadcutters. The late Elmer Keith used them as well with good effect. It is irrelevant that animals are not shooting back, because they are dead with lead bullets. If one can kill deer and wild boar with them with proper shot placement, so can a Homo sapien be killed with wadcutters.
I have been hunting on my farmland for about 60 years and have killed more deer and wild boar than I can count . And yes, many were killed with wadcutters. The late Elmer Keith used them as well with good effect. It is irrelevant that animals are not shooting back, because they are dead with lead bullets. If one can kill deer and wild boar with them with proper shot placement, so can a Homo sapien be killed with wadcutters.
ironhead7544
Member
If you must recommend the use of wadcutters in 38 Special please specify the Buffalo Bore load. I have used all manner of handgun ammo for varmint hunting and the standard WC load just does not work well. I thought it would but was wrong. Also it does not penetrate barriers very well.
The factory wadcutters I have chroned went less than 600 fps from a snubby. No thanks.
The swaged wadcutters are also too soft. If they are so awesome of a defense loads why arent the cops using an 8 shot revolver with them for duty? Do you know of any large organization that issues them for duty?
The factory loads the wadcutter at 1/2 the pressure of the standard load. This is meant for practice and target work.
I make it a point to shoot some varmints with any load I use. Currently I use the CorBon 115 gr in my 9mm G26. Makes a nasty wound that I have seen in person. Goes 1260 fps from the G26.
Buffalo Bore also makes a 158 gr soft lead SWCHPGC load in standard or +P. Thats what I would use in a snubby.
Also, this is the first time I have ever seen the snubby 38 Special wadcutter load compared to a 45/70 rifle.
The factory wadcutters I have chroned went less than 600 fps from a snubby. No thanks.
The swaged wadcutters are also too soft. If they are so awesome of a defense loads why arent the cops using an 8 shot revolver with them for duty? Do you know of any large organization that issues them for duty?
The factory loads the wadcutter at 1/2 the pressure of the standard load. This is meant for practice and target work.
I make it a point to shoot some varmints with any load I use. Currently I use the CorBon 115 gr in my 9mm G26. Makes a nasty wound that I have seen in person. Goes 1260 fps from the G26.
Buffalo Bore also makes a 158 gr soft lead SWCHPGC load in standard or +P. Thats what I would use in a snubby.
Also, this is the first time I have ever seen the snubby 38 Special wadcutter load compared to a 45/70 rifle.
snooperman
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Not for hunting , at 700ft/sec ,but I have carried them ..
in my Colt snubby guns and so do my brothers who were in law enforcement. A large man has a chest diameter of about 13". It is well known that wadcutters can penetrate deep enough in a mans chest to kill him. Obviously at 40-50 yards more velocity is needed with that type of bullet for game, but that is irrelevant because the distances we are talking about for conceal carry is going to be rather close. Hence 650-750 ft/sec is plenty good.
in my Colt snubby guns and so do my brothers who were in law enforcement. A large man has a chest diameter of about 13". It is well known that wadcutters can penetrate deep enough in a mans chest to kill him. Obviously at 40-50 yards more velocity is needed with that type of bullet for game, but that is irrelevant because the distances we are talking about for conceal carry is going to be rather close. Hence 650-750 ft/sec is plenty good.
grendelbane
Member
For a long time now, I have thought that most wheel-gun bullets were loaded backwards. Now the mid-range wadcutters may be too lightly loaded. That doesn't mean the concept is flawed. The Buffalo Bore wadcutter shows that the concept has merit.
I would like to see a boat-tailed wadcutter. Some thing like a 125 grain truncated cone loaded backwards. Load it in the 800+ range, from a 2" barrel. Let's see how that works in gel. Should do OK in other media, also.
Its not a new idea. For all of the people who said why didn't some LEO organization use it, if it was such a good idea. Look at what most LEO's carried just a few years ago. Hollow point handgun ammunition has been around since the the end of the 19th century, yet when I was young, police were still mostly carrying .38 Special, round nose lead bullet loads.
I have known more than a few old timers who carried wadcutters. Some of them aren't all that old, some of them are even younger than I am.
I would like to see a boat-tailed wadcutter. Some thing like a 125 grain truncated cone loaded backwards. Load it in the 800+ range, from a 2" barrel. Let's see how that works in gel. Should do OK in other media, also.
Its not a new idea. For all of the people who said why didn't some LEO organization use it, if it was such a good idea. Look at what most LEO's carried just a few years ago. Hollow point handgun ammunition has been around since the the end of the 19th century, yet when I was young, police were still mostly carrying .38 Special, round nose lead bullet loads.
I have known more than a few old timers who carried wadcutters. Some of them aren't all that old, some of them are even younger than I am.
xXxplosive
Member
Byron:
The bullet you describe was called the Scorpian and was factory loaded by Federal, I believe......still have some.
Deep hollow cavity with the post sticking up about 3/4 of the bullet depth.....they were advertised to expand back beyond the post almost like an umbrella in a wind storm.
The bullet you describe was called the Scorpian and was factory loaded by Federal, I believe......still have some.
Deep hollow cavity with the post sticking up about 3/4 of the bullet depth.....they were advertised to expand back beyond the post almost like an umbrella in a wind storm.
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