Why are my groupings out of proportion

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Hunter2011, Mar 9, 2015.

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  1. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    The rifle in question is a CZ452 .22LR
    My groupings at 25 meters is spot on, can't really ask for better. When extending the range to 50 meters the groupings do open up quite a bit, but it is still acceptable to me.
    But when I shoot at 100 meters, I have notthing to brag about...
    Why do the groups open up so much at 100 meter shooting. How much bigger should groups be at 100 meters than at 50 meters?
     
  2. Kingcreek

    Kingcreek Member

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    Iron sights or magnified optics?
    With good glass expect 100m to be 2x 50m plus the effect of wind.
    100m is long for .22lr and unless you are using match ammo and good glass, I wouldn't expect too much.
     
  3. fotheringill

    fotheringill Member

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    #2

    Ditto.
     
  4. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    Bushnell 6500.
    Ammo: Eley Subsonic and SK Lapua Subsonic.
    My rifle likes them best.
     
  5. ILikeLead

    ILikeLead Member

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    as your target gets farther out external factors will have a proportionally greater effect on your bullet. wind will push a bullet farther the slower the bullet goes. variations in muzzle velocity will also cause a greater difference in vertical stringing....

    This is why ladder testing works in reloading and why it must be done at longer distances... (but that's another topic)
     
  6. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    You don't say what constitutes "good" and "nothing to brag about".

    My CZ-452 "American" will shoot one-hole groups at 25yds with ammo similar to what you're using.
    At 100yds, 1-1.5" groups are expected. I've also got a T/C Contender with 21" "Match .22lr" barrel. It shoots similarly to the CZ.

    I've watched the bullets arc to the target though the Scopes when shooting on bright white paper. You can see the wind currents moving them around or pushing them left or right depending on wind conditions. Every so often with lesser quality ammo, you can see a bullet "wobbling" or looking like a strobe light flashing as it twists and turns in it's flight to the target, often hitting quite some distance from where it's aimed.

    Most long-range .22 competitors I've talked to (most rf-silhouette shooters) expect 1-1.5" groups under optimum conditions.
    I shot exactly one silhouette match. With the help of an "AA" class shooter calling my shots, I got a "B" classification score. I actually took down most of the 100yd rams. It was the 75yd turkeys that "got me".
    If the club was still in existance, I'd like to try it again with either the CZ or the T/C. With the better glass that my CZ wears (Leupold), I'd bet that most of the 75yd turkey's would be in trouble...
    Standard velocity ammo supposedly gives better wind-resistance to 100yds, but we used the High-velocity, mostly Winchester Super-X for the 100yd rams. Extra speed aided in knocking them down.
     
  7. Casefull

    Casefull Member

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    Not to be a smart alec but it is a 22. Bullets that light, moving that slow, are subject to a lot a movement. As in pellet guns being very unaccurate at longer distances.
     
  8. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    I have two 455s, both of which can produce 5-shot groups at 100 yards well under 2 inches with glass.
    What are you getting on your 452?
    Denis
     
  9. IndianaBoy

    IndianaBoy Member

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    Right off the bat you can expect your groups at 100 yards to be 4x larger than your groups at 25 yards, of course.


    Leaving that aside, every error you make is magnified at longer distances.

    Wind has more time to work on the bullet.

    Heeled bullets like 22lr don't fly as true as good centerfire jacketed bullets.


    But without some group sizes we don't know what you are working with.
     
  10. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    Group sizes.
    Ok, at 25 meters I get groups like this.
    At 100 meters I will struggle to keep all my shots on this same sized piece of paper. Therefore the groups opens much more than 4X.
    Guys who shoots the same size groups as me at 25m beats me hands down at 100 meters:confused:
     

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  11. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    I've just used standard .22 brands easily available here in the US, nothing exotic or match-grade.

    One 455 is a synthetic-stocked American Suppressed, the other is a full-stocked model.
    Neither have heavy target barrels.

    Good glass helps, but your scope should be up to the job.

    If shooting on calm days with no wind, the gun should easily hold 2 inches at least.

    You may be not entirely steady when you shoot that far?
    Or, it could be your subsonics.

    I would not expect those to do well at 100 yards.
    Denis
     
  12. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    So standerd velocity should be a bit better then? Reason I prefer subsonics over SV is because most subsonics are hollow points. I want to hunt with that what I shoot on the range with. Most SV ammo like CCi and Lapua etc are all solids.
     
  13. 12many

    12many Member

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    I thought CCI Standard Velocity were subsonic? I like them, even though they drop more than HV because they are quieter.
     
  14. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    I don't know what brands or types are available where you are.
    Most of what I've run through my 455s has been high-velocity stuff, with the exception of the CCI standard solid.

    We have numerous hi-vel hollowpoints available here, and I would use neither a solid nor ANY subsonic for hunting in the caliber.

    In my case, the HPs work far better on the rabbits that are the only thing I hunt in a .22caliber.
    Others like solids for head shots, if planning to eat the meat.
    I don't, my rabbit hunting is purely varmint control.

    Either way, a subsonic is an "under-powered" round that starts out relatively slow to begin with, and rapidly loses steam over the longer distances.

    I would not expect it to hold well at 100 yards, and I would not expect a subsonic HP to have either much velocity or much expansion at that distance.

    CCI does a good hi-vel HP, if you can get it.
    Denis
     
  15. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    You posted while I was typing.

    CCI Standard Vel Solids are subsonic in a 4-5 inch pistol barrel, not in a rifle barrel.
    Chronographed at 1032 FPS through one of my 455s.

    Altitude, humidity & air density are also factors, besides the barrel length.
    Denis
     
  16. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    This.

    Most .22 LR loads are barely supersonic at the muzzle, and will transcend the sonic barrier inside of 100 yards, which is detrimental to accuracy. It's also a lightweight bullet, and something moving at what is basically pistol velocity leaves a lot more time for environmental factors to act on it than a rifle bullet traveling at 2-1/2 or 3 times that speed.

    In short, while there are many .22 rifles and loads that shoot quite well at 50 yards, you cannot expect the 100 yard groups to increase by a linear factor. I don't expect any .22 LR to hold MOA at 100 yards, regardless of weapon and ammunition quality.
     
  17. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    MOA, no. :)
    But 2 inches or better through a good gun (which the CZ is) and decent glass off a solid rest in calm wind conditions should be do-able.

    My best 5 at 100 through one of the 455s was 1 3/8 inches with the CCI Velocitor at 1358 FPS.

    That round in that gun would be a great hunting load. :)
    That's the FS version.

    CCI Mini-Mags through the suppressed 455 pulled off a best 5-shot 100-yard group of 1 5/16 inches, suppressor mounted, at 1234 FPS.

    Another good hunting round.
    Denis
     
  18. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    I honestly never even tried Velocitors at 100M. That was just because at 50 meters my subsonics and SV rounds are so much more accurate than it. I thought it would be useless as 100m. Seems I must never assume:D
     
  19. 12many

    12many Member

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    Isn't speed of sound 1100 f/s? So, SV are subsonic? I am at 2500 feet so don't know how that affects it.
     
  20. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    You kinda have to look at the types of distances you plan to be hunting.

    In my case, I concluded long ago that what a rifle does at 25 yards is totally irrelevant, in any caliber, since what matters to me is what it does at an average "max" distance I may need from a given gun.

    With a .22, I don't typically need half-inch 100-yard accuracy, with most of my hunting & plinking being done inside 75 yards or so.

    I have the FS 455 sighted at about 75 yards with the iron sights, did not in fact need to change them as they came out of the box.
    That gun won't normally wear a scope, it did for a recent project so I'm able to quote the 100-yard figures from it.

    The American Suppressed 455 will keep its scope.
    The two rifles are set up for different purposes; the FS for ATV carry & limited ground carry, the Suppressed for longer shots when going for...longer shots & more precise accuracy. :)

    My .22 leverguns are zeroed for 50 yards or thereabouts, and I have no 100-yard expectations from those at all. I have no doubt they could do reasonably well that far out, but they'll never wear glass & my eyes are the limiting factor there with irons, not the intrinsic accuracy of the guns themselves.

    75 is pushing my own limitations with irons & my eyes.

    When I test for accuracy with any of those, I determine the max expectation of the individual gun, and test at that distance.

    If it's good at that distance, I figure anything inside it should be good at closer ranges.
    Denis
     
  21. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    Speed of sound is a sliding scale. :)
    I'm at 4500 feet.
    Denis
     
  22. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    Are we talking about the others shooting at the same time? If you're looking at their groups from different times of the day they might have been shooting during calmer wind conditions for starters.

    If they are shooting at the same time as you then they may be better at the game of compensating for wind. It may be a skill you need to work on.

    It might also be the case that your bench rest skills are not up to their level. A 1/4 inch group size difference at 25 can escalate to a dinner plate size difference at 100 yards if the issue is with the shooter's stability.

    I've come to learn that shooting from rests is a skill very much as keen as good free standing shooting. It's just that the tolerances to error are less in rested shooting because the expectations are higher. So even the tiniest factor becomes a major one.

    In the end it comes down to a whole combination of factors and having to adjust to each and every one before we can shoot 100 yard groups that are the proper scale of a 25 yard group. It's about using the right subsonic ammo so you don't get the transonic buffeting, using the ammo the rifle likes, using a good and consistently supportive rest system and finally holding the gun and pulling the trigger with exactly the same method and force every time.

    For the times I've played at rested shooting with my rimfire rifles I've found that the less physical contact I make with the gun the better my groups. So I try to limit myself to a front bag rest and resting the lower corner of the butt plate in my cupped support hand. My cheek hovers over the comb so I see down the scope with no actual cheek contact. And after all that I pull the trigger by pinching between the rear of the trigger guard and the trigger with thumb and forefinger. With this I've gotten the best and most consistent groups at 25 and 50 and pretty good results on the 12 inch square steel gong out at 200. When shooting at the gong it's typical to see all the shots hit in a roughly 5 inch circle.

    But when I've done this is was always on a dead calm day. Add in wind and I'd be lucky to hit the hill the range has as its backstop just behind the 200 yard limit.... :D

    I did find that I got the best groups from my meager supply of CCI SV ammo compared to the HV Blazer. I don't have a lot of other options so I can't comment further than to say that starting with subsonic might result in a LOT more bullet drop but it does give more accuracy.
     
  23. DPris

    DPris Member Emeritus

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    I do just the opposite in shooting the CZ .22s for strict accuracy testing- Full shoulder contact, full "normal" right-hand grip wrapped around the stock wrist, support hand holding the fore-end locked down onto the sandbag, full cheek contact, pull the rifle back into the shoulder before pulling the trigger.

    Steadies the rifle better for me than the type of loose hold you describe.
    If you do better with subs, great.

    I just wouldn't expect better long distance groups with them than hi-vels, where the subs are not only running into bullet drop but also a slight tendency toward a more erratic path as they run out of steam.
    But, what do I know? :)
    Denis
     
  24. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I too am having trouble with my 22 at 100 yards. It is very accurate to 50 yards. It is a Remington 540XR. I bought some match ammo and with 2 brands I could only do 1 1/2 inch groups. There was a light breeze. It is hard to get a calm day here. The chamber is too tight for most standard or high velocity ammo. I have A CZ 452 that is very accurate, maybe I should try that one. Seldom get to shoot 100 yards with the 22 due to range congestion.
     
  25. Comrade Mike

    Comrade Mike Member

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    The guy beating you may just be a better shooter. Distance magnifies error.
     
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