Visible light lasers are kind of the opposite of red dots. I think they're marginally helpful at close range from imperfect shooting positions, but inferior at range.
If they're not familiar enough with aiming and shooting their weapon to pull it up toward the target and find the dot (and the iron sights) more or less on on the target, I'd just a soon they don't have a loaded weapon around me. But, IF they are fumbling around looking for the laser dot, they should find it at the POA for the iron sights.Simple. People look for the red dot and then chase it to the target. That is just how many people are, plain and simply. If they wanted to use their sights to find the laser dot, they could just use their sights to find the target, huh?
If they're not familiar enough with aiming and shooting their weapon to pull it up toward the target and find the dot (and the iron sights) more or less on on the target, I'd just a soon they don't have a loaded weapon around me. But, IF they are fumbling around looking for the laser dot, they should find it at the POA for the iron sights.
You should probably stay home where it is safe. A tremendous number of folks who buy guns for self defense do not get formal self defense training. Many don't have to get CCW training or pass a test before carrying. They are all around us.
Is that the fault of the laser or the unwillingness to learn how to use a laser.Reality is what reality is. People don't necessarily find laser sights better than regular sights and many find them to be harder to use, a distraction, and slower to use effectively.
No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger. My observation and conclusion is far too many think a red dot will cure all the shooting foibles and guarantee a hit. They don't. Much like adjustable sights 'are more accurate' than fixed sights.
A laser can actually do a good job of fixing the yank, just need to take the ammo out of the gun and learn to yank the trigger without moving the dot.No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger.
That is sort of correct. A laser will not prevent or correct a yank just by being installed. What you suggest is correct, but it requires concentrating on doing 'it' correctly.A laser can actually do a good job of fixing the yank, just need to take the ammo out of the gun and learn to yank the trigger without moving the dot.
My only rebuttal is this. If one will not bother to 'read' the shot patterns, notice where the bullet holes are forming and watch where the sights are aimed (not when the shooter startd, but) at the instant of firing, why would such a person bother with watching how the laser moves?One advantage of a laser is it being used as a training aid. Anyone standing right next to a shooter using a laser can see if/when the shooter is pulling the shot by watching what the laser does when the trigger is pulled.
My only rebuttal is this. If one will not bother to 'read' the shot patterns, notice where the bullet holes are forming and watch where the sights are aimed (not when the shooter startd, but) at the instant of firing, why would such a person bother with watching how the laser moves?
Yes but if the "horse is thirsty" it's a lot cheaper to lead him to water using a laser than trying to guide them with 1000s of rounds of ammo.12Bravo20:
Nope. But I fear we are off on a different subject now. Something about 'horses' and 'water' come to mind...
Mav, have you noticed you have moved from laser as a superior sight to laser as a training aid? This discussion seems to be veering off on a tangent.Yes but if the "horse is thirsty" it's a lot cheaper to lead him to water using a laser than trying to guide them with 1000s of rounds of ammo.
I haven't moved anywhere as I said in my first post in this thread.Mav, have you noticed you have moved from laser as a superior sight to laser as a training aid?
I run bi-weekly pistol shoots (one similar to falling plates and without holster, one 'practical pistol'). There have been several shooters using lasers, red dots and small scopes. My observations are not encouraging. They have no better results than iron sights, in the main.
My thoughts are the reason for purchasing and employing such equipment is to cure the problems of a proper trigger pull. In those cases where the laser is properly sighted in, one sees the 'dot', the visual indicator, pretty well on the target. Then abruptly the dot disappears - usually down - and the pistol fires. No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger. My observation and conclusion is far too many think a red dot will cure all the shooting foibles and guarantee a hit. They don't. Much like adjustable sights 'are more accurate' than fixed sights.
For those who have a positive experience, I fully admit I have not seen everyone shoot. I'm sure there are exceptions.
I have to agree.Hmm, it's sounding like lasers are generally not accepted as giving an advantage in daytime tactical shooting.
I don't think it matters at all in defense shootings. Yes, there is 'drop' in all fired shots. However, in ranges up to 25 yards or so it doesn't matter much. Unless, of course, one is a NRA 2700 competitor. But for a hit on main torso, not much.Smaug said:Yes, it's true that the trajectory of the bullet will vary, but that's no different than when shooting with irons, a scope or a red dot. the point on a defensive handgun is to get it close enough to hit center of mass at ranges out to maybe 10 yards. Trajectory doesn't matter in these ranges. Or rather, it will matter a LOT less than other factors.
Great idea! Actual findings are far more convincing than how I think it should be.Smaug said:Next time I head to the range with my CTC-gripped SP-101, I'm going to shoot at different distances out to 25 yards with and without laser, and will report back with targets. If I can find someone willing, I'll ask them to time me too.
I wouldn't say "zero cost" but "included in cost of the gun". It can very from a slot in the slide ala LCP all the way to nice adjustable ones on a Gold Cup or something.Somehow this morphed into some people thinking to use a laser as their primary sight in daylight. Nothing beats iron sights in daylight. Basically we have 6 sighting systems and heres were I put them
Iron sights - #1 in daylight. Low profile... durable, fast etc. Time proven .... zero cost. Low maintinance. Learning curve depends on the shooter and how good they wish to be. Zero cost and less complications keeps things simple and natural... and cheap.
I disagree. I have a $50 red dot from probably 10 years ago. Big and clunky, almost as big as a 2x scope. Cheap & Chinese; probably not that reliable on anything but a 22LR. This is what I would call an "early stage" red dot. Today's red dots are LIGHT YEARS better in every regard except price. Especially the mini ones that go on the slide of an auto pistol; they can REALLY take a beating. As reliable as irons? Nope, esp. since there's always that Battery Factor. But to suggest they're not durable isn't being fair.Red Dot... early stages. Durabillity questionable still. Expensive. Adds bulk to sight picture making irons less natural. Requires more maintinance. In the event of a failure IE Loss of zero, Battery, breakage etc. you have a big hunk of optic that you are forced to see through and try to line up iron sights (if you have them) while under stress. Great for generating business/money among "trainers" for those clients that wish to make shooting with red dots on a handgun in multiple self defense scenarios as complicated as possible. Great for range shooting in controlled environments and enjoying tactical fantasies while wearing and useing the latest gear.
This is very fair. I would even say generous, because GOOD lasers like what CTC builds into the grips are usually over $200. I guess you're thinking of rail-mounted.Laser sights.. Affordability in the $100-$150 range. Easy to use in complete darkness. Very little training needed other than simple familiarity with how the laser works. Mounts below the barrel so Iron sights are left completely unobstructed. In the event of a failure (battery, breakage, loss of zero) the laser is completly out of the way. Practically weightless and does not effect slide mass for cycling in any way. Useable in darkness in almost any position that the firearms can be safely discharged IE.. laying down, around corners, hip fireing, out a vehicle window, behind cover etc. etc. Very fast and very friendly towards unconventional sloppyness IE non dominant hand, single handed shooting, less than ideal hold etc. etc. Cons are because they are so simple to use lasers dont generate business/clients for "tactical" trainers or instructors like your Slide mounted red dots. Best for speed in darkness when Iron sights cant be used.
Uh oh, you lost me here when you couldn't resist the urge to engage in hyperbole.No Sights?... Great for those who believe they are jedi level shooters in all conditions reguardless of stress, fear, nerves etc. Does away with the burdensome and bulk/weight notion of useing sights on a projectile launcher and relies on the "feel" of the user with the belief that they have supernatuaral powers to control the flight path of bullets through magic under conditions they have no control over. Shakey area in terms of liability should a projectile not hit the intended target as ever explaining the notion that you "dont need sights on a CCW" in a legal situation could put you in the category of Nutcase. Great option for those whose ego with firearms does not match reality in the world of such firearms. No practical advatage for Carry or spreed since the invention of snag free sights. Very limited in terms of distance shooting outside a phone booth and any sort of consistent accuracy can be very limited when useing different types of ammo. Costless outside of wasting ammo and not hitting targets.
Yeah, I wouldn't call a flashlight a sighting system. They can be tactical, because a blinded opponent is less dangerous but it only helps illuminate the perp in case he needs to be popped.Flashlights...not much of a sight (more a sight aid) Great for target aquasition in darkness and also great for signaling exactly where you are like a Lighthouse signaling a ship on a rough ocean of potential danger. Requires the use of a primary sight. Very loud in terms of announcing yourself to a potential threat to the point that most lights would do well to have an audble function of "Hello!... Here I am!" allowing a potential threat to just start shooting in the direction of whatever is blinding them. Much higher profile that a small laser dot and also much easier to pinpoint its origin. Very tactical although practicality is iffy.
How come you neglected peep sights but included flashlights?These are the common ones. I left out Ghost ring sights and betteryless reflex sights as they are not very common. They have their plusses and minuses as well but nobody talks about them much.... until the current fad dries itself out of course. Firearms tech tends to run in cycles so I am sure they will get their turn again eventually.
They look super cool in movies.