Why aren't lasers more popular on handguns?

Why don't use use a laser on your carry or home defense gun?

  • I don't like them (reason posted in a reply)

    Votes: 17 19.3%
  • They're too expensive

    Votes: 5 5.7%
  • Not available for my choice of gun

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not practical for my choice of gun (holster compatibility, etc.)

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • I don't feel like they're reliable enough

    Votes: 6 6.8%
  • I DO use a laser on my carry or home defense gun!

    Votes: 32 36.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 25 28.4%

  • Total voters
    88
  • Poll closed .
With a laser the dot is on the target. With a red dot the dot is up close, easy to see and always the same size. The only time I'd want a laser is an IR laser with night vision.
 
Visible light lasers are kind of the opposite of red dots. I think they're marginally helpful at close range from imperfect shooting positions, but inferior at range.

I don't disagree. My laser equipped handguns are used for short range in dim light (< 20 yards). I literally use lasers as electronic tritium. When I had tritium sighted guns, I didn't shoot them past 20 yards in dim light either.
 
Simple. People look for the red dot and then chase it to the target. That is just how many people are, plain and simply. If they wanted to use their sights to find the laser dot, they could just use their sights to find the target, huh?
If they're not familiar enough with aiming and shooting their weapon to pull it up toward the target and find the dot (and the iron sights) more or less on on the target, I'd just a soon they don't have a loaded weapon around me. But, IF they are fumbling around looking for the laser dot, they should find it at the POA for the iron sights.
 
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If they're not familiar enough with aiming and shooting their weapon to pull it up toward the target and find the dot (and the iron sights) more or less on on the target, I'd just a soon they don't have a loaded weapon around me. But, IF they are fumbling around looking for the laser dot, they should find it at the POA for the iron sights.

You should probably stay home where it is safe. A tremendous number of folks who buy guns for self defense do not get formal self defense training. Many don't have to get CCW training or pass a test before carrying. They are all around us.

I have been binge watching body cam videos of police shootings. I am surprised by the numbers of times I have seen cops try to insert magazines backwards or upside down. The point here is that even many of the professionals don't maintain proficiency of what they have learned.

Reality is what reality is. People don't necessarily find laser sights better than regular sights and many find them to be harder to use, a distraction, and slower to use effectively.
 
You should probably stay home where it is safe. A tremendous number of folks who buy guns for self defense do not get formal self defense training. Many don't have to get CCW training or pass a test before carrying. They are all around us.

In 1983, an Illinois man named Hale DeMar purchased two handguns. He kept them for 20 years in a safe, still in their original boxes without firing them once.

On December 28th 2003, his home in Wilmette Illinois was burglarized. The next night he took one of the guns out of the safe, a Smith & Wesson 38 Special revolver, loaded the gun with 6 hollow points and placed the gun under his bed. That night, the man who had burglarized the home the night before came back to burglarize the home again. Around 10:30 p.m. DeMar was awakened by his home security system. Grabbing the loaded revolver that he had never once shot, he confronted the burglar, firing 4 shots, hitting the burglar twice. The burglar exited through a window and later collapsed in front of a hospital that he drove himself to.

I'm not discouraging people from getting training, but that was not bad for a first-time gun owner with no training.
 
I keep lasers on a few firearms, I use them to (confirm) zero of multiple optics as they are swapped out. They are also handy to show direction for others in the dark (pointer). Other than that I find them less than useful.

I do remember a compensator test that used one, along with an open shutter/dark room to track muzzle movement during recoil. I thought that was a good idea to make one useful too.

If you wanted someone to locate you in the dark, they would be great as well.
 
I run bi-weekly pistol shoots (one similar to falling plates and without holster, one 'practical pistol'). There have been several shooters using lasers, red dots and small scopes. My observations are not encouraging. They have no better results than iron sights, in the main.

My thoughts are the reason for purchasing and employing such equipment is to cure the problems of a proper trigger pull. In those cases where the laser is properly sighted in, one sees the 'dot', the visual indicator, pretty well on the target. Then abruptly the dot disappears - usually down - and the pistol fires. No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger. My observation and conclusion is far too many think a red dot will cure all the shooting foibles and guarantee a hit. They don't. Much like adjustable sights 'are more accurate' than fixed sights.

For those who have a positive experience, I fully admit I have not seen everyone shoot. I'm sure there are exceptions.
 
No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger. My observation and conclusion is far too many think a red dot will cure all the shooting foibles and guarantee a hit. They don't. Much like adjustable sights 'are more accurate' than fixed sights.

You are correct, no type of sights or aiming devices will fix bad shooting techniques. We all had to practice with iron sights get get proficient, the same goes with using any type of optic or laser.

One advantage of a laser is it being used as a training aid. Anyone standing right next to a shooter using a laser can see if/when the shooter is pulling the shot by watching what the laser does when the trigger is pulled.

I will add that if one uses a laser and a micro dot optic, make sure the optic reticle is a different color than the laser. So if you are using a red reticle, go with a green laser and if using a green reticle go with a red laser. The reason is that it will be hard to see both if they are the same color.
 
A laser can actually do a good job of fixing the yank, just need to take the ammo out of the gun and learn to yank the trigger without moving the dot.
That is sort of correct. A laser will not prevent or correct a yank just by being installed. What you suggest is correct, but it requires concentrating on doing 'it' correctly.
 
One advantage of a laser is it being used as a training aid. Anyone standing right next to a shooter using a laser can see if/when the shooter is pulling the shot by watching what the laser does when the trigger is pulled.
My only rebuttal is this. If one will not bother to 'read' the shot patterns, notice where the bullet holes are forming and watch where the sights are aimed (not when the shooter startd, but) at the instant of firing, why would such a person bother with watching how the laser moves?
 
My only rebuttal is this. If one will not bother to 'read' the shot patterns, notice where the bullet holes are forming and watch where the sights are aimed (not when the shooter startd, but) at the instant of firing, why would such a person bother with watching how the laser moves?

Well if the person coaching the shooter is NOT watching what actually happens then they are not much of a help to the shooter now are they.
 
12Bravo20:
Nope. But I fear we are off on a different subject now. Something about 'horses' and 'water' come to mind...
Yes but if the "horse is thirsty" it's a lot cheaper to lead him to water using a laser than trying to guide them with 1000s of rounds of ammo.
 
I bought lasers, red and green, Crimson Trace brand. I found the dot hard to find in the daylight. At close range, the dot is significantly offset so the laser can never match the point of impact. This isn't different from other offset sights like irons and reflex (red-dots), but the offset is often unusual (below the bore axis or to one of the sides). The more you adjust the parallax for the shortest ranges, the farther it will be off at distance. Could the laser be adapted to? Possibly, but before I made significant adaptations in my practice, I wanted to heed mainstream practice and not start with reinventing the wheel so to speak.

In the few years I've had a handgun, I've done at least 96 hours of professional training mostly at the big name schools. That may only be a fraction of the experience others have had, but I never once heard advice to use a laser. I never once saw an instructor or trainer coach the use of lasers. I never saw them taken seriously whatsoever. I've seen a few students show up with them, and the lasers are regarded about as much as the medallions on the grip panels. Gunsite once did a laser class, but it was sponsored by Crimson Trace. They dropped it after that. Compare this to how many of the schools have begun to offer carry optic / red-dot classes in the last several years and continue to do so. If lasers were a tool that offered considerable aide to defensive shooters, why is there a total absence of doctrine on their use in the mainstream of common custom and practice?

I also noticed that lasers are hardly if ever used by police today. I recognize that police have different applications and use case for firearms than civilians. However, I believe that one of ways police use firearms is exactly the same way a civilian would use them for defense of self and others they are protecting from lethal threats. Most of the ways police use of force differs from that of civilians is that they have additional duties the civilian need not undertake. So why have they not adopted the use of lasers? Mini-reflex sights (red dots) have been undergoing rapid and widespread adoption by police. Again, with lasers absent from common custom and practice, there is a total absence of widespread, field-proven formal training on their use. That makes it much harder to see how and why they are beneficial.

I also noticed that lasers are disregarded in practical shooting competition (IPSC, IDPA, USPSA etc.) While these sports are a different application than the defensive use that most people would choose a laser for, I've noted the laser has not proven to be useful in sport shooting and question what if anything might be different in defensive use.
 
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Yes but if the "horse is thirsty" it's a lot cheaper to lead him to water using a laser than trying to guide them with 1000s of rounds of ammo.
Mav, have you noticed you have moved from laser as a superior sight to laser as a training aid? This discussion seems to be veering off on a tangent.
However, yes, as a training aid, it can be very useful.
 
I'll just make one more comment in this thread. Yes lasers have their place just like optics have their place too. It boils down to a personal choice if someone wants to use one or the other or both. And if you use a laser or optic, you still need to practice just as you do with iron sights.

In the end use what YOU feel most comfortable with, BUT don't belittle others for their choices either.
 
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Mav, have you noticed you have moved from laser as a superior sight to laser as a training aid?
I haven't moved anywhere as I said in my first post in this thread.
"I have a set on my LCR IMHO they make a much better training aid for honing your trigger press and point shooting ability than actual practical use in a self defence scenario."
I believe the thread is about popularity, popularity doesn't necessarily require superiority. I'm quite sure nobody has suggested to get a laser and grind off those useless iron sights.
The greatest thing about having a laser on my LCR and using all the excellent and basically free dry fire training. I shoot better with AND without the laser it even helps with other guns that don't have.
So the reason they're not more popular is because many people look to gadgets to replace training or they make excuses like "they're belly guns", "most self defense is at bad breath range" or " beyond 7 yards and you'll end up in jail" to just for go training.
 
I run bi-weekly pistol shoots (one similar to falling plates and without holster, one 'practical pistol'). There have been several shooters using lasers, red dots and small scopes. My observations are not encouraging. They have no better results than iron sights, in the main.

My thoughts are the reason for purchasing and employing such equipment is to cure the problems of a proper trigger pull. In those cases where the laser is properly sighted in, one sees the 'dot', the visual indicator, pretty well on the target. Then abruptly the dot disappears - usually down - and the pistol fires. No sighting system will correct a wild yank at the trigger. My observation and conclusion is far too many think a red dot will cure all the shooting foibles and guarantee a hit. They don't. Much like adjustable sights 'are more accurate' than fixed sights.

For those who have a positive experience, I fully admit I have not seen everyone shoot. I'm sure there are exceptions.

Hmm, it's sounding like lasers are generally not accepted as giving an advantage in daytime tactical shooting.

I also see a lot of comments that shooters don't do better with lasers than with irons, but how about in the dark? With irons or a red dot, the shooter needs to line up the dot or front sight with the perp. With a laser, there's no need to line up ANYTHING. Continue watching the perp, put the dot on him, and if he does the wrong thing, let 'er rip.

Yes, it's true that the trajectory of the bullet will vary, but that's no different than when shooting with irons, a scope or a red dot. the point on a defensive handgun is to get it close enough to hit center of mass at ranges out to maybe 10 yards. Trajectory doesn't matter in these ranges. Or rather, it will matter a LOT less than other factors.

Next time I head to the range with my CTC-gripped SP-101, I'm going to shoot at different distances out to 25 yards with and without laser, and will report back with targets. If I can find someone willing, I'll ask them to time me too.
 
Hmm, it's sounding like lasers are generally not accepted as giving an advantage in daytime tactical shooting.
I have to agree.

Smaug said:
Yes, it's true that the trajectory of the bullet will vary, but that's no different than when shooting with irons, a scope or a red dot. the point on a defensive handgun is to get it close enough to hit center of mass at ranges out to maybe 10 yards. Trajectory doesn't matter in these ranges. Or rather, it will matter a LOT less than other factors.
I don't think it matters at all in defense shootings. Yes, there is 'drop' in all fired shots. However, in ranges up to 25 yards or so it doesn't matter much. Unless, of course, one is a NRA 2700 competitor. But for a hit on main torso, not much.

Smaug said:
Next time I head to the range with my CTC-gripped SP-101, I'm going to shoot at different distances out to 25 yards with and without laser, and will report back with targets. If I can find someone willing, I'll ask them to time me too.
Great idea! Actual findings are far more convincing than how I think it should be.
 
Somehow this morphed into some people thinking to use a laser as their primary sight in daylight. Nothing beats iron sights in daylight. Basically we have 6 sighting systems and heres were I put them

Iron sights - #1 in daylight. Low profile... durable, fast etc. Time proven .... zero cost. Low maintinance. Learning curve depends on the shooter and how good they wish to be. Zero cost and less complications keeps things simple and natural... and cheap.

Pistol magnified Scope.. best for longer distance. Not practical on a carry CCW typically. Somewhat Delicate nature makes them more suited for target shooting or hunting at distance. High level of skill involved for extended ranges.

Red Dot... early stages. Durabillity questionable still. Expensive. Adds bulk to sight picture making irons less natural. Requires more maintinance. In the event of a failure IE Loss of zero, Battery, breakage etc. you have a big hunk of optic that you are forced to see through and try to line up iron sights (if you have them) while under stress. Great for generating business/money among "trainers" for those clients that wish to make shooting with red dots on a handgun in multiple self defense scenarios as complicated as possible. Great for range shooting in controlled environments and enjoying tactical fantasies while wearing and useing the latest gear.

Laser sights.. Affordability in the $100-$150 range. Easy to use in complete darkness. Very little training needed other than simple familiarity with how the laser works. Mounts below the barrel so Iron sights are left completely unobstructed. In the event of a failure (battery, breakage, loss of zero) the laser is completly out of the way. Practically weightless and does not effect slide mass for cycling in any way. Useable in darkness in almost any position that the firearms can be safely discharged IE.. laying down, around corners, hip fireing, out a vehicle window, behind cover etc. etc. Very fast and very friendly towards unconventional sloppyness IE non dominant hand, single handed shooting, less than ideal hold etc. etc. Cons are because they are so simple to use lasers dont generate business/clients for "tactical" trainers or instructors like your Slide mounted red dots. Best for speed in darkness when Iron sights cant be used.

No Sights?... Great for those who believe they are jedi level shooters in all conditions reguardless of stress, fear, nerves etc. Does away with the burdensome and bulk/weight notion of useing sights on a projectile launcher and relies on the "feel" of the user with the belief that they have supernatuaral powers to control the flight path of bullets through magic under conditions they have no control over. Shakey area in terms of liability should a projectile not hit the intended target as ever explaining the notion that you "dont need sights on a CCW" in a legal situation could put you in the category of Nutcase. Great option for those whose ego with firearms does not match reality in the world of such firearms. No practical advatage for Carry or spreed since the invention of snag free sights. Very limited in terms of distance shooting outside a phone booth and any sort of consistent accuracy can be very limited when useing different types of ammo. Costless outside of wasting ammo and not hitting targets.

Flashlights...not much of a sight (more a sight aid) Great for target aquasition in darkness and also great for signaling exactly where you are like a Lighthouse signaling a ship on a rough ocean of potential danger. Requires the use of a primary sight. Very loud in terms of announcing yourself to a potential threat to the point that most lights would do well to have an audble function of "Hello!... Here I am!" allowing a potential threat to just start shooting in the direction of whatever is blinding them. Much higher profile that a small laser dot and also much easier to pinpoint its origin. Very tactical although practicality is iffy.

These are the common ones. I left out Ghost ring sights and betteryless reflex sights as they are not very common. They have their plusses and minuses as well but nobody talks about them much.... until the current fad dries itself out of course. Firearms tech tends to run in cycles so I am sure they will get their turn again eventually.
 
Good points, starling, but see below too:

Somehow this morphed into some people thinking to use a laser as their primary sight in daylight. Nothing beats iron sights in daylight. Basically we have 6 sighting systems and heres were I put them

Iron sights - #1 in daylight. Low profile... durable, fast etc. Time proven .... zero cost. Low maintinance. Learning curve depends on the shooter and how good they wish to be. Zero cost and less complications keeps things simple and natural... and cheap.
I wouldn't say "zero cost" but "included in cost of the gun". It can very from a slot in the slide ala LCP all the way to nice adjustable ones on a Gold Cup or something.


Red Dot... early stages. Durabillity questionable still. Expensive. Adds bulk to sight picture making irons less natural. Requires more maintinance. In the event of a failure IE Loss of zero, Battery, breakage etc. you have a big hunk of optic that you are forced to see through and try to line up iron sights (if you have them) while under stress. Great for generating business/money among "trainers" for those clients that wish to make shooting with red dots on a handgun in multiple self defense scenarios as complicated as possible. Great for range shooting in controlled environments and enjoying tactical fantasies while wearing and useing the latest gear.
I disagree. I have a $50 red dot from probably 10 years ago. Big and clunky, almost as big as a 2x scope. Cheap & Chinese; probably not that reliable on anything but a 22LR. This is what I would call an "early stage" red dot. Today's red dots are LIGHT YEARS better in every regard except price. Especially the mini ones that go on the slide of an auto pistol; they can REALLY take a beating. As reliable as irons? Nope, esp. since there's always that Battery Factor. But to suggest they're not durable isn't being fair.

Laser sights.. Affordability in the $100-$150 range. Easy to use in complete darkness. Very little training needed other than simple familiarity with how the laser works. Mounts below the barrel so Iron sights are left completely unobstructed. In the event of a failure (battery, breakage, loss of zero) the laser is completly out of the way. Practically weightless and does not effect slide mass for cycling in any way. Useable in darkness in almost any position that the firearms can be safely discharged IE.. laying down, around corners, hip fireing, out a vehicle window, behind cover etc. etc. Very fast and very friendly towards unconventional sloppyness IE non dominant hand, single handed shooting, less than ideal hold etc. etc. Cons are because they are so simple to use lasers dont generate business/clients for "tactical" trainers or instructors like your Slide mounted red dots. Best for speed in darkness when Iron sights cant be used.
This is very fair. I would even say generous, because GOOD lasers like what CTC builds into the grips are usually over $200. I guess you're thinking of rail-mounted.

No Sights?... Great for those who believe they are jedi level shooters in all conditions reguardless of stress, fear, nerves etc. Does away with the burdensome and bulk/weight notion of useing sights on a projectile launcher and relies on the "feel" of the user with the belief that they have supernatuaral powers to control the flight path of bullets through magic under conditions they have no control over. Shakey area in terms of liability should a projectile not hit the intended target as ever explaining the notion that you "dont need sights on a CCW" in a legal situation could put you in the category of Nutcase. Great option for those whose ego with firearms does not match reality in the world of such firearms. No practical advatage for Carry or spreed since the invention of snag free sights. Very limited in terms of distance shooting outside a phone booth and any sort of consistent accuracy can be very limited when useing different types of ammo. Costless outside of wasting ammo and not hitting targets.
Uh oh, you lost me here when you couldn't resist the urge to engage in hyperbole. :)

I guess you're referring to point-shooters. Like the cowboys in the western movies, who could draw, shoot from the hip, and nail a guy 30 yards away on a balcony. Say what you want, but at distances under 3 yards, point-shooting might just be The Best Way. Ruger's LCP has been a runaway best-seller with its rudimentary slot cast into the slide. It's because people accepted that a gun like this is not going to take shots past maybe 3-5 yards.

Flashlights...not much of a sight (more a sight aid) Great for target aquasition in darkness and also great for signaling exactly where you are like a Lighthouse signaling a ship on a rough ocean of potential danger. Requires the use of a primary sight. Very loud in terms of announcing yourself to a potential threat to the point that most lights would do well to have an audble function of "Hello!... Here I am!" allowing a potential threat to just start shooting in the direction of whatever is blinding them. Much higher profile that a small laser dot and also much easier to pinpoint its origin. Very tactical although practicality is iffy.
Yeah, I wouldn't call a flashlight a sighting system. They can be tactical, because a blinded opponent is less dangerous but it only helps illuminate the perp in case he needs to be popped.

These are the common ones. I left out Ghost ring sights and betteryless reflex sights as they are not very common. They have their plusses and minuses as well but nobody talks about them much.... until the current fad dries itself out of course. Firearms tech tends to run in cycles so I am sure they will get their turn again eventually.
How come you neglected peep sights but included flashlights? :confused:
 
Smaug. Ill try to respond to each of your thoughts..here goes

- Yes Iron sights are costless unless you want to fancy things up a bit. People have all kinds of preferences of course. I like fully adjustable rears but its not really necessary IMO on a defensive handgun. Nice but not a necessity. In the past Adjustable sights were sometimes fragile but most of the stuff I see now is excellent.

- I was speaking of slide mounted red dots. I honestly do feel that durability is questionable. I have seen shattered glass, sheered off screws, failure of internals etc. etc. this just from shooting. One good thing I will say about these new optics is people tend to handle their firearms with a little more care. If the optic does fail you have a malfunctioning piece of useless junk sitting on top of your slide until you can remedy the situation. Sooner or later somebody will design a quick detatch slide mounted optic system. This is not the end of the world of course. Just something to seriously consider on a CCW regardless. People seem to ignore how much slaming goes on with pistol slides. I have old Ultradots mounted on a few pistols that have held up since the 90s just fine but those are frame mounted. Of course slide mounted have improved a bit but Im still seeing broken/malfunctioning optics. I understand its a fad though so these things need to play out until the next "new" thing takes hold. Seeing lots of Comps on carry pistols now so I predict porting will make its way back around fairly soon.

-yes the laser grips are more expensive. I dont really like them because I like to pick my grips but its a preference thing. Lots of good lasers out there in the $100-$150 range if one looks around. Rail mounted is fine for me but I like the model specific lasers moulded to fit the trigger guards. They arent very expensive, are out of the way, and located directly under bore which I prefer heavily to side or grip mounted lasers. Doesnt ones tend to hold up well as they are mounted on the frame (again ...less slamming there). I like larger battery models for more capacity, I like a kill switch as well. People having wandering zeros must not know what vibratite or locktite is yet because my lasers always stay dialed in. I dont needlessly abuse my pistols though so there is that. Maybe its a mounting issue more than the actual laser loosing zero.

-Yes I joke a little. Cant help it. Lots of craziness/sillyness in the firearms world now compared to the old days. I blame youtube, Hollywood, and lack of healthy hobbies and activities among the populace. Many people worried about gadgetry and how fast they are able to pull a trigger without being able to hit a bullseye or even go for a jog simple without collapsing. So I joke. Anyone serioussly wanting to improve "tactical" training would be better off trying paintball where you are actually under the threat of being shot yourself. Gonna shatter a lot of Egos though. Its all good though...no worries.

-3-5 yards shooting? Do people actually practice that? Thats pretty much spitting distance. I guess I could see that as a confidence builder for new shooters. It would get boring pretty fast. If an LCP is only good for 3-5 yard hits thats kind of rediculous. I can nail a 1 gallon milk jug pretty easily with a cheap Raven 25acp at 25 yards (my typical shooting distance) and I am not some pistol sniper. 3-5 yard hit range is pretty silly. Kind of scary that people are willing to accept that standard on a CCW.

- Point shooting practice is fine I just wouldnt depend on it in any sort of chaos environment.

- I just didnt go into peep/ring sights because its so rare anyone uses them on pistols. I still see people use them on Hi-points from time to time. They work well but are not in vogue right now. give it time and they will cycle back around. I have heard people talk of useing are Slide mounted red dot housing as a big ring sight... thats a pretty big ring!. I suspect they mean for spitting distances in which case the whole point shooting is most likely just as effective. Better trick for that on say a striker pistol with a retaining plate would be to just paint a dot on the rear of the slide that is in line with the bore for rapid close encounter shooting. Kinda supprised nobody does it. All these custom retaining plates and nobody uses it to incorperate a small glowing dot. Taurus Curve did the crosshair thing at the rear of the slide in line with the bore.

Flashlight can kind of be a sighting system if done right. HK did it once on rifles. I think the Zodiak myth (not that anyone wants to be serial killers...I hope) was that he used a pen light taped to a 22 pistol barrel. Would be closer ranges of course but it is doable. Just need to concentrate the beam or blacken out the center of the lens (HK was like this). Wouldnt be practical on a CCW to telegraph your position so loudly but on a home defense pistol it could work well.

Hopefully I am not pulling the thread off topic too much but I wanted to give you the same courtesy of your previous post.

BTW.. I am far from being a fuddy duddy about tech on firearms. I am pretty open to trying new (or new revisions) stuff. I think this sight has potential....

https://www.meprolight.com/product/mepro-ft-bullseye-front-sight/

Have not tried one yet though. If proven durable it might be the ultimate close range low profile setup. No bulk... no batteries... nothing really to go wrong. Extremely simple learning curve. Gives you iron sight like durability while offering reflex type features. Thinking about trying one for the wifes pistol. Have to search around for a deal though.

-
 
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