Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Redcoat3340, Nov 14, 2015.
The Seecamp 380 is 1" shorter in length and 1/2" shorter in height than the R9
Did a previous poster mention the IJ-70 or IZH-70?
The Russian Makarov design is known as one of the most reliable/rugged semi-auto handguns ever produced.
The commercial versions are often in .380 Auto, if not most of them, in single and double-stack. The power is very similar to the 9x18 M. round used in the original military Makarov handguns.
IMO, the R9 is small enough and light enough for comfort. I know peoples preferences are different, but I really forget about the R9 when it is in my front pocket.
For me anything over a pound loaded is too heavy. My bodyguard no laser is 14 Oz loaded. My s&w m37 is 1 pound loaded. I pocket carry them. I have a pm9 at almost 19 Oz loaded feels a little heavy to me.
Amen, Ignition, amen!
I have four 380's. My 380 Makarov is the most accurate of the four. I bought it brand-new in the late 1980's for $149. It has yet to malfunction.
don't fight it.....they are just cool to have. Pocket carry...suit coat....etc. And they can ALWAYS be with you.
If you subscribe to Massad 's emails or Backwoods, then you got the latest one tonight where Police Chiefs across the Country are telling their Officers to start immediately to carry their service or full sized weapons , 9mm and up with at least 2 magazines.
No more off duty 380's or guns with just the ammo that is in the gun.
Most citizens are doing likewise since this latest terror attack happened, and the threat of an attack here. Check out his Blog. I for one carry a sub compact 9mm with 2 spare mags . I have been carrying a full sized gun along with the smaller one on occasions that I would be in malls or other places that are soft Targets, but after actually seeing this, I will for now carry my PPQ, or Glock 30 S, along with 2 mags.
He said what I was thinking, so that's good enough for me.
Also said don't think that this can never happen where you live. That's what the people in Paris thought. An American mall Store like a Macys or Movie theatre are all possible soft targets, and rural response times are at least 3-5 minutes at best. NY then it's done, stay safe and stay prepared. With the holidays approaching let us not take any unnecessary chances with our loved ones, or ourselves, stay safe.
I'm sure the anti 380 message is sweeping the nation
I've seen a couple of different threads on different forums where the OP asks if people are are now carrying larger calibers and more rounds.
Maybe the point is that as the general fear level increases so does caliber and capacity?
I hope that fear of the Jihadist Menace doesn't spell the doom of .380 pistols - its bad enough that we hardly have any .32 ACP semi-autos, having no .380 semi-autos would stink !
Maybe there will soon be a market for that 10mm carbine I've been hoping for
I got a purple frame for my Pico just to show off my manliness.
I (sort of) understand the thinking that says it is advisable to carry a larger weapon with more capacity due to increased chances of terror attacks...but only sort of. In the vast majority of potential instances I can't imagine that having an eight or nine round cc 9mm would substantially improve the odds over a seven or eight round .380 or a five or six round .38 when faced with one or more assailants armed with AK47s. If one is close enough and/or lucky enough to be in range with either to inflict a decisive blow, I think either would suffice. The more powerful weapon is the least important factor, IMO. I think most people are best served by continuing to carry a weapon they are most comfortable and proficient with and one they can adequately conceal under more circumstances. But, I understand the idea and I've been wrong before.
I think the OP wants us to convince him to buy a .380 cause he wants one.
That said; I own an LCP, P3at, two G42s, and among others, two G29 10mm. I pocket carry the G42 with spare mag and have been doing so long enough to not even notice that I have it on me. Sure I'd rather have the 10mm if I knew I'd need it, but then I'd just avoid the situation altogether if I had a crystal ball.
I've become pretty proficient with the G42 to at least 15 yards and at 10 yards I think I can put someone's eye out. But that comes with about 2000 rounds or more of practice which I doubt most people do. Heck I have friends who have bought new pistols and have never shot them. If the time comes they will be in for a rude awakening.
Joining GSSF and shooting about 10 matches a year has made us practice more and increased our preparedness. My wife knows her way around a G19 and can put someone down at 10-15 yards.
So whatever you carry, practice, practice, practice, and above all....be very aware.
I'm not a fan of micro .380's, though there are alot of good ones on the market. If I want a micro gun, I'll stick with .32. I have a Seecamp and a NAA Guardian. My .380's are "full sized". (That looks funny as soon as I typed it).
A Sig P232 is a great gun. Small and light (alloy frame) yet shoots like a real gun. I'm phenomenally accurate with it.
It certainly carries more rounds than a J frame. And I can get better hits.
I think it's great that we have so many choices.
A quality gun with quality ammunition will go a long way towards solving any problem we might run in to. After those criteria are met, it's all discussion points.
The handgun cartridges I handload:
32 S&W Long
So why do I carry 380?
It must have something to do with a trade off between large gun effectiveness vs small gun convenience, and driven by the magnitude of the threat.
in all the .380 ballistics tests ive seen even with highly specialized self defense ammo, they all seem to come up short on penetration.. i guess FMJ or nothing with them
9x18 makarov with the same bullets would allow expanded bullets with enough penetration to be much more effective, as makarov can be loaded safely to higher pressures than the 380, plus has a bit more case volume due to it being of a larger diameter
what i want in a pistol is 9x18 ultra, you'll probably never find it, its incredibly rare and would definitely be handload-only, but the reason i would want this in a pistol is it has all the benefits of a compact blowback pistol, but differs from say the 9x18 makarov in that it can safely run at even a bit more higher pressures, but more importantly it runs with a standard .355" bore which allows you to use all those specialized self defense expanding .380 bullets but with a velocity boost that allows you to get the expansion they offer with the necessary penetration
to make 9x18 ultra, since the 9x18 makarov is just a ruskified version of 9x18 ultra, you could probably use 9x18 brass, or 9x19 brass chopped down should suffice, ream out and load to 9x18 pressures with a .355" bullet... now if i could run something like this through a CZ-82 with a 12 shot mag with all its reliability, ergonomics, quality, and the accuracy and simplicity of a blowback, id have in my opinion the perfect everyday carry weapon.. a near future plan of mine is to rebarrel a CZ-82 to 9x18 ultra
if im not mistaken, 9x18 ultra brass can be sized in a 9mm die, and 9x18 ultra chambers can be reamed with a 9mm reamer
Odd the "all the Police Chiefs" in America re banning the .380 ACP. Nobody down here is aware of any of the 177 Sheriffs altering their firearms policy.
It makes sense for Police to carry their Duty Weapon. They are supposed to run toward the sounds of gunfire. If they're made in public, it matters little, as their badge provides them with protection against violating the public's tender sensibilities.
I have to agree with the statement that expecting a single-stack 9mm compact to make much of a difference against multiple armed terrorists is pretty optimistic thinking, unless your name is Jerry Miculek However, terrorists are few and far between today. Instead, criminals seem a much more likely target.
Suicide bombers tend to have fail safe switches, just in case they get shot. They often find that there is a second detonator, controlled from afar, by someone to intervene in case of a change in attitude in the bomber. Shooting them is often a matter of picking a rime when the fewest people are around them.
All in all, it would seem the caliber discussion, as far as terrorist instances goes, it far down on the list.
Cause a LCP doesn't pull my gym shorts down, and I figure if I'm wearing gym shorts odds are the bad guy won't be wearing a parka.
Also there are many older 380s that max out the cool factor, 1908 Colts and Walthers and such.
Love my Colt Govt 380 it's just cool.
Emphasis mine ^
What criteria are you measuring the test results against to say they all come up short?
I load 380s to 3 levels, depending on the pistol.
The bottom is P3AT and LCP with flyweight slides, thin chamber walls, wimpy recoil springs, short OAL magazine, short barrels, and poor case support:
95 gr Gold Dot 1100 fps per the chronograph
A heavyweight with great case support, like a Husqvarna M/07:
158 gr XTP 1187 fps per the chronograph
Bought this one recently, cause I like them, good looking, superbly made, and shoots well, and it was a bargain.
Whose minimum penetration
That often quoted minimum penetration varies. My agency found that 9 inches was enough for issue ammo. We did not have any problems with that logic. The idea that you have to shoot through windshields to be effective is really only logical IF YOU ACTUALLY DO HAVE TO SHOOT THROUGH WINDSHIELDS!
Cops making an arrest my have to, but you would be better served by taking cover first in a gunfight with someone who is firing from a vehicle.
You might have to shoot through a window in the event of a car-jacking, and if you're firing from the seated position at an attacker who is standing, you may be firing through the glass at an angle.
There is ammunition that meets the FBI minimum, Hornady XTP, for instance, in several loadings - most notably Precision One.
So I'm not sure if you just haven't seen that many tests or if you're applying some criteria other than the FBI's when you say "they all seem to come up short on penetration"
That gun was designed to be shot one handed. If you like the .380 I would look at recently released Remington R380.
I first took up the .380 as a carry gun for all the reasons already stated. I started reloading for it. Since I had a cheap source for ammo I decided to get a larger gun for the range.
It's fun to shoot, and the lowest cost round I reload. Light bullets and low powder requirements. Surprisingly accurate in every gun I've tried, in spite of them being generally inexpensive guns. With the proliferation of the caliber brass has gotten much easier and cheaper to find, even free as most .380 owners do not reload and leave their brass. I find the 9mm much more temperamental to load for.
I like the 380 At present 2 of the older Colt Mustangs (wearing one now) 2 Bersa Thunders , Interarms PPK/s , KelTec 380. Other mouse guns in house My daughters like the KelTec 32 , So 4 0f them. Have a PF-9 but Iam only one to shoot it
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