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Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by stchman, Nov 11, 2009.

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  1. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    It's been said by many but unfortunately bears repeating...

    The gun was designed to be carried and deployed in all three conditions.

    There is no question in my mind that C&L is the fastest way to deploy a gun for defensive purposes from a suitable holster. It is also a very safe way to carry. When self defense is the primary concern Condition one is the best way to carry the gun from a proper holster designed for that task. However the gun can be carried or had about you in ways in which Condition One is not the best and when immediate deployment in a self defense role is not the primary concern.

    I've slept with a 1911 in a sleeping bag, on more than one occasion, in condition two.

    I've carried a 1911 in a paper bag inside a tool bag in condition two.

    I've stood security with a 1911 in my coat pocket in condition 2.

    I've carried a 1911 while hunting where it was in condition 3 in a full flap holster which was underneath a coat. It was with me but the longarm was a more useful defensive weapon if I needed it for such.

    I've carried a 1911 condition 2 in a briefcase.

    A 1911 has sat in a vehicles glove box condition 2.

    I've stuffed a 1911 condition two between the cushions of a couch.

    These situations, and others, prompted me to utilize the versatility that the three conditions allow. Condition 2 or 3 are useful when no holsters are possible or desirable. Or when immediate access to the gun is not possible or needed.

    It is useful to know how to take advantage of the versatility the weapon has to make it a more useful tool.

    tipoc
     
  2. christcorp

    christcorp Member

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    tipoc: excellent post. Indeed, there is no condition that the 1911 was INTENDED to be in. If there were, then it would only have 1 condition. Obviously, there are reasons, which the designer had in mind, for carrying the weapon in condition 2. And it is totally up to the person carrying the weapon to determine which way they want to carry it. I will never argue anyone who wants to carry a 1911 in condition 1. Nor would I argue someone who wanted to carry theirs in condition 2 or 3. But I will argue anyone who says the only legitimate way to carry the 1911 is in condition 1. Or that it was intended to be carried that way. As you eloquently said, it wasn't INTENDED to be carried any particular way. It's whatever way is right for your use and purpose. Especially when it comes to safety.
     
  3. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    Great post, tipoc.

    As has been mentioned, fanny pack carry is not usually a place where Condition 1 is worthwhile - they're the definition of soft holster.
     
  4. David E

    David E Member

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    Just for fun, I re-checked all my posts in this thread. I didn't post the "what ifs" you assert. I did ask a few questions of the champions of Condition 2 carry, but as usual, they remain unanswered. Further, I'm not saying that the Condtion 2 folks are "wrong," only that they are creating a needless hurdle to overcome.

    That simply betrays a lack of practice in Condition One.

    I corrected you the last time you accused me of this. Please re-read the posts. Further, in post #179, I said:
    Regardless of how it was "designed," the smart way to carry a 1911 on the body for defense IS condition one.

    If you are not comfortable carrying it that way, then a better route would be to choose a different gun design that can be fired with minimal manipulation instead of choosing a less effective, slower method of carrying the 1911.


    This remains true.

    There are many 1911's that come from the factory with ambi safeties.

    You've been told ? Well, then it must be true! :rolleyes: Evenso, a proper holster protects the safety.

    I never said that and you know it. I did say that when I carry a 1911 concealed, it's in a KyTac BraveHeart holster. It locks the safety in the "on" position. I've carried a concealed 1911 for nearly 30 years. I recognize that the 1911 CAN be carried concealed fairly easily for most folks. Good holster and belt required.

    I never said "my way" was the only way. :rolleyes: But it is the best way to carry a concealed 1911 on your body for personal defense. Off-body carry/storage is another matter.

    As I've said previously, if speed and consistency are not important to you, then it doesn't matter how you carry your 1911

    christcorp, please read my entire posts before responding.
     
  5. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    Synopsis of the previous ten pages:

    "I'm right, you're wrong!"

    "No! You're wrong, I'm right!"

    <ad nauseam>
     
  6. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    One point that should be raised here is that the gun is not fired every time it is drawn.

    If you carry in Condition 2, you have a loaded, cocked gun, safety off, pointed at a person. That's a recipie for a tragedy.

    If you carry in Condition 1, you have the safety engaged, with your thumbs on it, ready for an instant shot.
     
  7. David E

    David E Member

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    Dang, Vern, now why did you have to go and bring up some real facts ?

    :D :D :D
     
  8. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Sorry. I forgot the rule banning facts and logic from discussions like this.;)
     
  9. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    If it's in a holster, being carried, it's NOT pointed at someone.
     
  10. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    But in a self-defense situation, it comes out of the holster, does it not?

    And in the overwhelming majority of cases, where a firearm is used in self-defense, it is not fired. So that would put those who carry in Condition 2 in the situation of pointing a loaded, cocked gun at someone with the safety off.
     
  11. David E

    David E Member

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    And as I had asked earlier, (with no reply) if you are doing a sweep of your house to investigate a strange noise, do the Condition Two champions cock the hammer or not? If not, where is the thumb?
     
  12. DaveBeal

    DaveBeal Member

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    I'm not convinced. Ever see one of those "swinging wonder" toys? The kind with five steel balls each hanging from a pair of fishing lines? If you draw back two of the balls and let go, they strike the middle ball and cause the other two balls to kick out. The middle ball doesn't move, but it conveys the energy to the other two.

    It seems that the same could happen to a 1911 with the hammer down. Something strikes the hammer. The hammer, without any perceptible motion, conveys the shock to the firing pin, driving it far enough to hit the chambered primer.

    I agree that a YouTube video of someone hitting the hammer of a condition 2 1911 clamped in a vise would be a great idea.

    And BTW, with the swinging wonder, how does it know to kick out two balls, rather than kicking out just one twice as high? :scrutiny:
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  13. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    A standard test for that is the drop test, when the gun is dropped muzzle down from a fixed height. At a certain height, the firing pin itself can have enough inertia to pop the cap. But that's higher than you would be able to drop it in the real world.
     
  14. Billy Shears

    Billy Shears Member

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    Because only the movement of two balls in this case conserves both energy and momentum. If one ball moved twice as far, it would conserve one, but not the other.
     
  15. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    Elastic rebound (kids toy with the steel balls) doesn't work if they aren't suspended...

    The idea of the "hammer down is safe" argument is that any energy imparted to the hammer is transferred to the slide, which it is resting against. The slide is in battery, so it can't move forward. Even if the slide is clamped in a vise, there isn't going to be any significant transfer to the firing pin. The slide/vise is going to absorb the impact (and turn it into heat), due to the relative contact areas involved.

    When the inertial firing pin sticks out (hammer back), things are different. Now it is no longer protected by the slide.
     
  16. christcorp

    christcorp Member

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    David; 1st; your Post #205 is a completely "What If" post. Also; both you and Vern have solidified way too many assumptions. In this thread, we are mainly speaking of CARRYING a 1911; and as such, debating condition 1 or 2. You are assuming that if I have a 1911 in the house; in the dresser or wherever; that it too would be in condition 2. Maybe!!! Maybe not!!! Maybe condition 1 or possibly condition 3. Again; you are making an assumption. You are also assuming that if I do have it in my dresser or wherever, and it's in condition 2; that the minute I pick up the pistol, that I'm going to cock the hammer and; in Vern's words; have a recipe for disaster. Maybe I don't cocked the hammer immediately. Again; I have no problem cocking the hammer, in what I feel is the same amount of time as switching the thumb safety off. And NO David; that doesn't mean a "Lack of practice" in condition 1. Maybe you have a lack of practice in cocking a hammer. There are Single Action cowboy shooters out there that I guarantee can cock a hammer and hit their target faster than you can sweep the safety and do the same thing. Especially if the safety is on the OPPOSITE SIDE of a the gun from your thumb.

    Way too many assumptions. There is a right time and a wrong time to carry a 1911 in condition 1. Until you can admit that there are times when carried, that condition 2 could in fact be better, then you are saying that your way is the only right way. And I will answer one of your silly assuming questions; not that it will mean anything; but depending on the scenario (No, not all "Sweeping of the house looking for zombies" requires a cocked hammer); if I haven't cocked the pistol, then chances are that I am holding the pistol with 2 hands; and my non-shooting hand will be the thumb that's resting on the hammer. Then again, there are times when I might immediately cock the hammer, and put the safety on. Stop assuming. And stop thinking that there are only extreme situations. I.e. That a person who believes in condition 2, would NEVER EVER have the gun in condition 1.

    I am going to allow you to post whatever you want. I WILL NOT be replying again on this topic, so enjoy yourself. I am sorry if I seem disrespectful, but trying to discuss this particular topic with some people, is a total Waste of my time. And that, is something I won't do. There is NO one way the weapon was designed to be carried. Anyone who believe there is/was; is in fact WRONG. There is no ONLY 1 way that it should be carried. Again; if someone believes that there is only 1 way that it SHOULD be carried; then they are WRONG. As far as in condition 1 BETTER than 2 or 3; that is totally dependent on the shooter, how the weapon is being carried, and the situation in which it needs to be used. I've carried in all three conditions. Through 21 years in the military, and the last 10 years since retiring. I've already stated I carry condition 1 in certain circumstances. But I know for a fact, that there are times when carrying, that condition 2 is better. So, go ahead and comment all you want. I'll find and wait for a more meaningful topic to jump in on. Best to all.
     
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    You have lost sight of the purpose of carrying a gun. We carry guns because we may need to use them.

    Now, if we carry them in such a manner to make use excessively dangerous or difficult, we have defeated the purpose of carrying them, haven't we?

    We know that most defensive uses of handguns do not result in a shooting. The attacker is stopped by the presentation of the gun, with no need to shoot. Holding a cocked gun, safety off, on another man who has stopped his attack is a recipe for a tragedy.
     
  18. Oro

    Oro Member

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    There, fixed it for you. The gun is not cocked in Condition 2. No tragedy imminent. And who's pointing the gun at a person?

    Fixed that one, too.
     
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Don't wanna bust your bubble, Vern...but if you're pointin' a gun at me...finger off trigger and safety on, and I've got one in my hand, pointed at the ground...if I decide to shoot...my shot will hit you about the same time your safety goes click.

    There's a difference between the inertial firing pin and the swinging balls. If the hammer is down, resting against the firing pin stop...and you smack the hammer, it pushes the whole gun forward. The firing pin obeys Newton 1A and stands still. It's also got a spring pushing backward on it.
     
  20. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    I find these questions quite odd and reveling of either a lack of experience or a lack of insight...

    From Vern:
    From David E:

    Let's look at the last question first. In this situation or any other like it (gun in a fanny pack, deep cover, etc.) the gun is drawn and cocked and the safety put on. You are now holding a condition 1 gun in your hand ready for the "sweep of your house" or whatever may be.

    On Vern's points: The gun is drawn and can be either fired or the safety applied as the situation calls for. The safety would be on if a person is being held at gunpoint for example.

    If a 1911 or BHP is kept condition two it can easily transitioned to condition 1. The one does not exclude use of the other. As I said only a fella unfamiliar with the 1911 or ackwardly bending the stick some to make a point, would believe so, seems to me.

    tipoc
     
  21. huckster

    huckster Member

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    Seems to me like apples and oranges from a shooting point of view, if you're gonna draw and shoot from either condition then TRAINING is the variable, not the position of the controls between the mind and the trigger.


    OTOH... the safety (or lack thereof) of placing the gun into condition 2 is the reason I don't carry in condition 2.
     
  22. delt167502

    delt167502 Member

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    there is a place for all 3 conditions 1 about to use. 2 carry with little chance of use. 3 in transport ,but still that chance. at one time i was forced to carry,( 24/7) but in a safe area,condition 3 was required after we had a plunger come loose letting the safety slip and the weapon went off.
     
  23. David E

    David E Member

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    Here is Post #205: For example, you hear a noise downstairs. It's not enough to call the cops, but it's enough for you to check out for your own peace of mind.

    Your chosen gun is a 1911. If in Condition 3, do you chamber one before investigating? If Condition 2, do you cock the hammer? In either case, you're walking around with a loaded and cocked gun with no safety applied.

    Or do you apply the safety? You know, the one you never apply in practice or use?

    Or do the Condition 2 guys investigate the noise with the hammer down, but thumb on the hammer, ready to cock it immediately? If so, how fast can you reacquire your firing grip?


    It's not a "what-if" post, it is a series of questions for the promoters of Condition 2 . I was hoping to gain insight from those folks on the matter. But christcorp completely ignored them, then took the post completely out of context.

    Clearly, it wasn't me that made assumptions.....
     
  24. David E

    David E Member

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    It seems that the promoters of C-2 go back and forth between "it's too easy to miss the safety," or, "it's just as fast to cock the hammer," to "I put the safety on and carry in Condition One when needed..." Dang, which is it?

    This thread has been about a private citizen carrying a gun on your person for defensive purposes. It's irrelevant how you store your gun in the dresser, safe, etc.

    As I've stated several times, if speed and consistency do not matter to you, then the state of readiness you carry your gun in is moot.

    If a deadly threat is imminent and requires a fast, deadly response, that's where Condition 2 creates a risk for the user. All of the top instructors teach to get a full firing grip at the initial contact with the gun. If the holster won't allow it, buy one that will. The C-2 carriers cannot achieve a full firing grip if they have to cock the hammer during the draw, unless they first get the grip, draw the gun, change the grip to reach the hammer, cock the gun, then re-establish the firing grip before shooting. But I suspect that most C-2 carriers will place their thumb on the hammer at initial contact and cock the gun while bringing it up and finally establish their firing grip (hopefully) before firing the gun. Most people would see the problem(s) with C-2 in this scenario. I hope the C-2 folks have an immediate "Plan B" for when they fumble the draw or the hammer slips to 1/2 cock.....

    Contrast the above with Condtion One: establish grip, draw, snick off safety, align gun on identified target BANG!

    Is a tight time frame likely? Would you really have time to cock the hammer and establish your firing grip in plenty of time? Maybe.......probably........ Not to over-dramatize, but would you bet your life on that? How about the lives of your family?

    It seems that a better solution would be carrying the gun in Condition 1, or buy a DA auto carried chamber loaded.
     
  25. Oro

    Oro Member

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    I think you have misinterpreted the original question. Go read the original post. It asks what advantage there is and does not specify holstered/unholstered or "on your person" as you say it does. Nor does the OP restrict it to civilians. It is a very generic question.

    There have been a large number of posts stating that Con. 2 offers some advantages in some scenarios. No one has argued it should replace Con. 1 in all situations in any post that I recall reading, and I have read every post in this thread along the way. Hopefully, some readers will have learned a bit about the operation of the gun and improved their understanding of it as a machine and its versatility. That will have made the thread worthwhile.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
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