Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

[David E]

Well, let's have a look-see..........

Post #1:

Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?

This is the name of the thread! Note the word "carry." It repeats several times in the rest of the post. Reasonable folks would not conclude that "carry" in his context denotes walking around carrying the gun in your hand, nor would it imply "carrying" the gun in your car.

The word "Draw" appears twice. This also implies on-body carry, which would include your fanny pack method if carried on the body. Since he didn't mention storage in a dresser drawer or make any reference to cops or military, it's safe to presume he's talking about a private citizen carrying a 1911. A logical further presumption is that said gun is carried for defensive purposes.

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Hello all.

I have heard many a 1911 user say to carry their 1911 in Condition 1.

Is there a big advantage to carrying a 1911 with the hammer cocked and safety on vs. hammer uncocked (Condition 2)?

Since a vast majority of 1911s are SAO I see no advantage.

I had a 1911 guy tell me that he carries his 1911 in Condition 1 because it is the best way.

I figure if you draw your 1911 in Condition 1 then you will need to flip the safety off with your thumb.

If you draw your 1911 in Condition 2 then you will use your thumb to cock the hammer back.

Both methods require your thumb to actuate something on the pistol.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[DougDubya]

And as I had asked earlier, (with no reply) if you are doing a sweep of your house to investigate a strange noise, do the Condition Two champions cock the hammer or not? If not, where is the thumb?

It seems that the promoters of C-2 go back and forth between "it's too easy to miss the safety," or, "it's just as fast to cock the hammer," to "I put the safety on and carry in Condition One when needed..." Dang, which is it?

David, I've never said anything like that.

I've also never done a house sweep with a 1911 - mainly because I prefer revolvers as my "bump in the night" gun.

Condition 2 uses the same safe decocking methods as revolvers, DA autos without decockers, lever action rifles, and other things, and is reserved for the time when I visit a friend whose spare 1911 is a GI model with a single-sided safety. Again, I'd use the same safety precautions for returning a cocked 1911 to Condition 2 as I'd use for a CZ-75, an old Walther P38, a cocked Smith and Wesson Model 10 or a Single Action Army. Using both hands, and keeping it pointed in a safe direction with a solid backdrop, if one thing goes wrong, other factors are in place to prevent harm coming from a negligent discharge. If I'm frazzled, anxious, or exhausted, then I'll just clear the damn thing - dump the mag, eject the chambered round, and leave the weapon until I'm clear, alert and focused enough to safely render a C2 firearm ready to go.

I'll also be cursing the TSA/Airlines/Fatherland, er, Homeland Security for making me leave my ambi-equipped 1911's at home. (What, you think I'm gonna trust the apes in luggage checking to not make a firearm disappear?)

You seem to equate decocking from Condition 2 to be as dangerous as giving an alligator a lap dance. Manual decocking is something done with many different firearms.

 

[Oro]

The word "Draw" appears twice.

You have to make a whole bus-load of assumptions there, David. Stick with the poster's own words and you just can't find "holster, "on your person," "civilian" or other things you assert.

 

[David E]

Dougdubya, I'm guessing you misread my post, as I never said anything at all about decocking a 1911 in this thread.

As far as this: It seems that the promoters of C-2 go back and forth between "it's too easy to miss the safety," or, "it's just as fast to cock the hammer," to "I put the safety on and carry in Condition One when needed..." Dang, which is it?

I did not ascribe that line of reasoning to you, specifically. Folks in this thread have said both things. So, again, which is it?

 

[cyclopsshooter]

I can't believe this post is still being discussed... no body is going to be convinced one way or the other...

we are all nutz

 

[David E]

You have to make a whole bus-load of assumptions there, David. Stick with the poster's own words and you just can't find "holster, "on your person," "civilian" or other things you assert.

Fer cryin' out loud, then maybe you can share with the rest of the class what the OP means by DRAW, CARRY, CARRYING and CARRIES, since he doesn't use the word "Fannypack," either. :banghead:

 

[Clarence]

I thought Col Cooper settled this question a long time ago. It appears I thought wrong.

Maybe someone should start a "Glock vs 1911" thread or a "Which is better 9mm, .40 or .45" thread. I'm sure we could settle either one of those more quickly.

 

[contactcole]

Is the OP's question a trick one? Why? Because I find it fires from C1 when I pull the trigger whereas it won't from C2. Not to mention the risk in lower the hammer on a live round to get to C2. No way... I'll pass. IMO get a different gun if C1 in a 1911 does not work for you.

 

[1911Tuner]

And it goes on and on...

I don't think anybody has stated that they won't carry in C-1 because they're not comfortable with it. If there are any, they can alleviate their concerns by carring an empty pistol around for a week in C-0...and as long as they don't remove the pistol from the holster and pull the trigger...the hammer is highly unlikely to fall. I hesistate to say "impossible" because anything is possible.

That said...for those who opt for Condition 2...whatever their reasons...it's workable with a little diligence and practice. It's not as fast as C-1, but it's not all that sluggish, either...if correctly done.

As for the notion that lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber is so fraught with peril that you should keep a surgeon on call at the local trauma center...Sheep dip. Figure out how to do it. Practice it dry. Don't rush. Don't get careless. Observe Rule 2. To wit: "Don't point the gun at anything that you can't bear to see destroyed."

And above all, remember the unwritten rule:

"It's a GUN. It's NOT safe.

 

[Billy Shears]

You have to make a whole bus-load of assumptions there, David. Stick with the poster's own words and you just can't find "holster, "on your person," "civilian" or other things you assert.

Sorry Oro, but it looks to me like you are being deliberately obtuse about this simply in order to avoid conceding a point. The only "assumptions" he is making are the obvious and reasonable ones that come from the commonly understood meaning of the words. What does the word "carry" mean? Does it mean "leave in your nightstand drawer?" Or does it mean "leave in your car?"

Come on dude, you know the answer to that question.

The word "carry" has an obvious meaning, which is clear to any reasonable person in the context of this post, and we should not have to resort to legalistic hairsplitting, or to writing our posts in lawyerese in order to leave no loopholes or wiggle room in order to preclude any possibility that someone will twist the words to try and include a meaning that goes beyond the reasonable, common understanding of the words.

 

[Billy Shears]

That said...for those who opt for Condition 2...whatever their reasons...it's workable with a little diligence and practice. It's not as fast as C-1, but it's not all that sluggish, either...if correctly done.

As for the notion that lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber is so fraught with peril that you should keep a surgeon on call at the local trauma center...Sheep dip. Figure out how to do it. Practice it dry. Don't rush. Don't get careless. Observe Rule 2. To wit: "Don't point the gun at anything that you can't bear to see destroyed."

I agree with you Tuner. On both points. I think what keeps the debate going so vigorously is the lack of understanding by condition 1 advocates why anyone would want to carry in condition 2 -- a lack of understanding I share myself. For some applications, condition 2 might be better. But for civilian concealed carry, using the most common method of carry (i.e. a holster), condition 2 offers no advantages over condition 1, and has several disadvantages. It's just puzzlement over why anyone would not only choose an inferior method of carry, but also defend it so tenaciously rather than simply conceding the obvious: "yeah, for concealed carry, condition 1 is a bit better."

 

[EddieNFL]

It's just puzzlement over why anyone would not only choose an inferior method of carry, but also defend it so tenaciously rather than simply conceding the obvious: "yeah, for concealed carry, condition 1 is a bit better."

No one likes being wrong? That's only a guess.

 

[tipoc]

Poison Oak is out but the rattler's ain't. Just watched my dog chase a flock of turkeys into some SLO Co. brush. Happy Thanksgiving.

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

It's just puzzlement over why anyone would not only choose an inferior method of carry, but also defend it so tenaciously rather than simply conceding the obvious: "yeah, for concealed carry, condition 1 is a bit better."

Maybe because not everybody always feels a pressing need to be ready to do battle
on a split second's notice...but still want the option of one hand operation. Note that circumstances dictate that the practice sometimes changes...and so we step up to a higher condition of readiness. ("Line of departure! Lock and load!) On home turf...in the house...behind closed doors...it's not so critical. In that situation, Condition Three would serve you about as well as C-1 or 2.

The reality is that few of us truly have a defined need to even carry a gun. We do it because:

A. It's better to have it and not need it than vice-versa.
B. It comforts us.
C. We can.
D. The vast majority of the readers here simply prefer to be armed...and it's not a bad idea.

But an actual, demonstrable need? A wise man once said that if you need to carry a gun, carry two. If you don't need to...carry one anyway.

No one likes being wrong?

Probably more of a matter of: "My way is the only right way, and any other way is stupid."

The conditions of readiness with a 1911 pistol are defined as 1-2-3. Your choice depends on how you happen to feel about a given situation. If you simply want to carry in Condition One all the time...that's your choice, and it's a valid one...because that's what you choose. If you choose either of the others...that's also your choice. I'm not presumptive enough to dictate to anyone what he or she should do when it comes to a personal choice...especially one concerning their security. I sure as hell ain't gonna call'em an idiot for opting for something that I don't choose for myself...gun or condition of carry.

Condition Two is an option...just like Condition One. No more and no less.

 

[EddieNFL]

On home turf...in the house...behind closed doors...it's not so critical. In that situation, Condition Three would serve you about as well as C-1 or 2.

I disagree. Local cop suffered a home invasion. BGs got to his gun before he did. Ten years ago I didn't feel the need to carry to church. I realize the odds of ever being involved in a shooting are slim, but I have no idea if/when the odds will catch up with me. Everyone who choses to carry a 1911 must decide for himself (and absolutely no one else) which condition is right for them.

I refer to a previous post:

Synopsis of the previous ten pages:

"I'm right, you're wrong!"

"No! You're wrong, I'm right!"

<ad nauseam>

 

[1911Tuner]

. Local cop suffered a home invasion. BGs got to his gun before he did.

Well...in that case, it wouldn't have mattered if the gun had been in Condition Zero. On the other hand...if he'd had the gun beside him on the end table in Condition 3...he'd have probably been able to chamber a round and meet the invader on a more level playing field.

If the gun is locked up in a safe, it's pretty much useless for home defense.

Likewise, if the gun is 10 feet away when the bad guy comes through the door...it can't do much good.

The first rule in a gunfight is: "Have a gun."

The second rule is: "Don't get caught with your pants down."

Going on with one of the oft-repeated question here:

"Why choose a less effective method of carrying?"

Could also apply to choice of armament.

i.e

Why carry a .380 when the 9mm is available?

Why carry a .38 Special when the .357 Magnum is available?

Why carry a .45 ACP when the .400 Cor-Bon is available?

...and on and on and on.

It boils down to options and choices...and that basically comes down to whatever we feel comfortable with. One guy loads a Model 10, and leaves it in the nightstand. Another carries a cocked and locked 1911, along with 3 spare magazines and a backup gun to the bathroom with him.

So, I'll qualify the previous statement with a pair of extremes.

If you're an MP walkin' a beat on Tu Do Street in Saigon in 1967...you probably want that pistol to be cocked and locked. If you're Suburb Sam, cookin' barbecue on the grill on a Saturday afternoon in Smallville Wisconsin...it's not quite that critical.

 

[EddieNFL]

It boils down to options and choices...and that basically comes down to whatever we feel comfortable with.

We agree on that.

If you're an MP walkin' a beat on Tu Do Street in Saigon in 1967...you probably want that pistol to be cocked and locked. If you're Suburb Sam, cookin' barbecue on the grill on a Saturday afternoon in Smallville Wisconsin...it's not quite that critical.

Until it becomes critical; then I would want every advantage. Didn't Superman grow up in Smallville?

 

[1911Tuner]

It's gettin' a bit ridiculous...but I'll play the "What If" game witcha.

If my grammaw'd had wheels, I wouldn't have had to buy a skateboard.

PS

There wasn't really a Superman.

 

[EddieNFL]

And if I had a crystal ball, I'd know which gun to carry in what condition.

 

[1911Tuner]

And if I had one, I'd probably stay in the house 24/7.

I'm kinda curious...

I'm not tryin' to convince you or anybody else to carry in any condition...or even which gun to carry...or even whether to carry at all. So...How did a question about gun functions and options turn into an argument over your personal choice?

 

[EddieNFL]

Well, I prefer to call it a discussion. Some fall into the ad homenm attack mode rather easily. I try to avoid that pitfall. Any remarks I make are intend to elicit thought, not argument. I don't think anyone here is wrong; they just do things differently than me.

Where is Lexington? I have family near Fayettenam, er, Fayetteville.

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't think anyone here is wrong; they just do things differently than me.

Now, there ya go! That was the whole point.

I'll recap:

Condition One is the best way to carry a 1911 for speed into action. No debate over that.

Condition Two is an option that, although not as fast...isn't as slow and clumsy as one might suppose, provided the user learns how to work with it.

Condition Three is another option. Although it offers the least advantage, it's still a gun...and it's still there should a problem arise that requires a gun to address. Condition Three is the "Garrison Mode" if you prefer.

It's a matter of choice. What is right for one man may not be right for another...or a particular choice may not fit one man's immediate situation.

Lexington is located pretty close to the middle of the state. It's 60 miles north of Charlotte and 35 miles south of Greensboro. I'm 25 miles west of the NC Zoo, if you know where that is.

Funny you should mention Fayetteville. I almost used "The wrong end of Hay Street" instead of Tu Do for my analogy, but I didn't know if you'd know what that meant. I understand that Hay Street ain't as...colorful...as it was in the 70s.

Next time you're in the area...if you've got a road trip in ya...sing out. Turbocoffee and BS flows in copious amounts around here. Hope ya like dogs...

 

[Slamfire]

Why carry a M1911 at all?

I have three, powerful, reliable, accurate M1911 pistols. But it is still a single action pistol. And all sorts of accidents have happened with it.

That safety is easy to wipe off, and then you have a loaded and cocked pistol with a single stage trigger.

I read a funny in a gun magazine. Cop goes into bathroom stall at cop station. Hangs his cocked and supposedly locked M1911 on the coat hook. When done he lifts his M1911 but the safety was actually off. Coat hook bumps trigger. Pistol fires, loads, recoils, and during counterbattery, coat hook bumps trigger until slide locks back on an empty magazine.

Everybody in immediate area scared silly.

Accidental discharges like this are why law enforcement agencies started the DAO trend.

M1911, great competition pistol. Beloved by the guys who shoot IPSC and other shooting games. Forever out of military service. (Maybe Delta force or Blackwater types still playing with it) Limited use in law enforcement.

Not the best choice for self defense.

Like that Red Ryder B-B gun, you will just shoot your eye out.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why carry a M1911 at all? And all sorts of accidents have happened with it.

And the same can be said of Glocks and double-action revolvers and single-shot rifles.

That safety is easy to wipe off, and then you have a loaded and cocked pistol with a single stage trigger.

Only if the safety is malfunctioning or the holster of choice wipes it off...and it's not really an issue anyway as long as the holster covers the trigger guard. If you don't want the gun to fire...don't pull the trigger. That simple.

With an unloaded 1911...cock it and holster it with the safety off. Carry it around every day for a month. At the end of the month...the hammer will still be cocked.

 

[EddieNFL]

Funny you should mention Fayetteville. I almost used "The wrong end of Hay Street" instead of Tu Do for my analogy, but I didn't know if you'd know what that meant. I understand that Hay Street ain't as...colorful...as it was in the 70s.

Next time you're in the area...if you've got a road trip in ya...sing out. Turbocoffee and BS flows in copious amounts around here. Hope ya like dogs...

Haven't been to Bragg in...a lot of years. "Colorful" indeed.

Love other people's dogs. I don't have to clean up after them.

Hangs his cocked and supposedly locked M1911 on the coat hook.

If he hung it by the trigger guard, he has no business handling a firearm...any firearm.

A guy that will have an ND with a 1911 will have one with (insert type here). NDs cannot be blamed on the gun.