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Why carry at universities?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by JamesM, Aug 19, 2007.

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  1. JamesM

    JamesM Member

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    I have a meeting with a university official about allowing me to carry on campus. It is not illegal for me (or anyone) to carry on campus but it is against school policy. Since “permission” can be granted to individuals by certain officials, I figured it would not hurt to try and go through the proper channels. Worst case scenario, I will get some information on why universities are so against CCW…. I assume the conversation will have two parts.

    1. Why do you feel you need to protect yourself? “This is a safe place”.

    2. Why don’t you use something else, like OC spray?

    I currently only carry a knife as my “less lethal” tool (I don’t carry any OC spray). Should I buy some OC to take away that aspect of the discussion or should I go ahead and argue why a firearm is the ideal tool for SD?

    I don’t want to start a 2A debate with the official; I just want to convince them that I should be allowed to carry on campus. Any input will help.
     
  2. Bartkowski

    Bartkowski Member

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    Sounds like a good plan to me.
     
  3. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    1. Is everybody on campus physically able to defend themselves with a "less than lethal" tool? Why should "self defense by intimidation" be limited to the large, young and healthy? (Few football players get mugged.)

    2. Given the amount of crime that can happen anywhere, why is a university campus any safer than any "nice" part of a city? After the affair at Virginia Tech, what guarantees can the university administration provide its students, teachers and visitors?

    3. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the Texas Department of Public Safety have both issued press releases which point out that people with CHLs are among the least troublesome in all of society. I see no reason why this would not be true in all states with a CHL program. What is the objection to having these most-peaceful people able to defend themselves?

    Art
     
  4. Oana

    Oana Member

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    Well, a knife isn't really any "less lethal", and people carrying knives can often seem scarier than people with guns. So I don't think I'd bring up that you're currently carrying ANYTHING except OC. Just my $.02. Buying OC might not be bad in any case; can't hurt, right? Just make sure you actually are carrying it regularly if you choose to do that - lying doesn't help!

    Write out your thoughts & reasonings beforehand re: these two questions which will likely be prominent in the conversation. Have them down cold so you aren't stammering and stuttering. But be flexible, respond to their questions and offer your case without going off on a script that really didn't have anything to do with the question. :) I think you have the right idea in not trying to start a 2A debate, especially if the individual is very anti-gun.

    I'll be very interested to see how this goes, because I've had the same thought before.
     
  5. Cannonball888

    Cannonball888 Member

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  6. IA_farmboy

    IA_farmboy Member

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    I wonder if asking permission to carry a concealed weapon might put you on some black list. To diffuse the spotlight you've brought upon yourself I suggest you invite some of your friends along that are also curious about being able to carry concealed. Not too many though, don't make it look like a "march on the capital" is going on.

    Encourage others to take the same steps. Do it by word of mouth or in a letter to the editor of the school or local town newspaper.

    To answer your question about why one would carry on university grounds... I guess the best way to answer that question is with another question, why carry a gun anywhere? A university is little different than any other public place. Most campuses I've seen blend right in with the city, it's not like there are walls and gates to prevent people from freely traversing from city property to university property (which is often considered private or state property depending on the laws and the understanding the school has with the city).

    You mentioned other tools to defend yourself. I remember my sister having a whistle on her key ring to bring attention to an attacker. When I went to college I realized how futile that would be. On a large and nearly vacant campus a whistle would not be heard, the direction it came from ambiguous, and/or its intention unknown. I do remember a student defending herself with a sharpened pencil as she was attacked from behind. The guy wasn't caught but I imagine he still walks with a limp.

    OC spray sounds like a reasonable compromise. It should also work against animals of the four legged variety. I had a couple coworkers tell me of times they had to deal with dogs. I hear the "stream" sprayers are better than the "mist" ones as it's less likely to come back in your face, but you do have to take careful aim.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2007
  7. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    The people at VA Tech thought their campus was a safe place, too.

    I am a college instructor and I have had psychotic students become violent and have been threatened on occasion. Police (including campus police) try but they can't be everywhere and they can't possible respond fast enough.

    Instead of explaining why you should be allowed to carry, ask them why a responsible, mature, law-abiding person SHOULDN'T be allowed to carry.
     
  8. thexrayboy

    thexrayboy Member

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    I am not going to come out with an absolute statement that you will be wasting your time in seeking permission to carry while on campus from the school administration. I will say that the odds of them saying yes rank right up alongside the chances of winning the lottery. In theory it could happen but the smart money says it won't. All the standard reasons, fear of liability, anti gun sentiment, unwillingness on administrations part to step up and be different from the rest of academia....all these can be reasons they will use to say no.

    Once you have brought yourself to their attention they will know you have a permit to carry, that you are interested in carrying on campus and will probably scrutinize you closely to catch you violating policy so they can give you the boot.

    If it is legal for you to carry concealed then do that. Concealed means what it says. If you do it right no one will know, you will be safer and you will probably have a lot less grief to deal with.
     
  9. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

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    http://www.timesdispatch.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-08-19-0183.html

     
  10. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I agree with Art. I doubt that the campus is crime free, and V.T. showed among other things that the longer the response time the more people get killed. They may be a self-styled "gun free zone" but individuals bent on committing crimes of any kind pay absolutely no attention to that.

    If you have a concealed weapons carry license or permit issued by the state where the university is located, the state has qualified you to carry a deadly weapon. Why then should the school be off limits? Would they for example, refuse to recognize your driver’s license? About the only thing they can really kick about is the weapon's security if you live on-campus in a dorm.
     
  11. JWarren

    JWarren Member

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    The answer is cut and dry.

    In the scientific method, experiments look for observable events.

    VA Tech was an observable event.

    It clearly showed the carnage that can be exacted on a population of unarmed persons.

    Unless they can show an ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN method of ensuring EVERYONE is unarmed, they cannot maintain that another attack will not occur.

    And because one has been observed, they cannot deny the validity of another possible attack.


    It disgusts me that academia cannot apply the logic they are assumed to have when a fact they find distasteful to their own politics is breeched.

    Grants have been awarded for millions of dollars based upon theoretical physics that has never been observed in nature, and yet so many are unwilling to relinquish political dogma in the fact of not only observable facts, but OBSERVED (past tense) facts.


    -- John
     
  12. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Member

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    If I were an al-Qaeda terrorist, a gun-free university would be on my list of prime targets.
     
  13. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

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    While I don't disagree with you, that's not a valid reason to argue in favor of concealed carry on campus. Al Qaeda prefers bombs and other WMD agents (chemical/biological/radiological) for their handiwork and an entire campus of armed citizens isn't going stop a well executed terrorist attack. Or even a poorly executed terrorist attack.
     
  14. DocMustang

    DocMustang Member

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    Advice

    Be extremely cautious merely asking for permission may be asking for trouble. You must keep in mind that you are dealing with people or whom firearms represent ewverything that is evil in the world. You may be exposing yourself to retaliation by campus administration. Merely asking about carrying a firearm on campus could have the effect of causing the administration to lump you in with the likes of Cho.
    You and I both know that there are legitimate reasons for using a fiream in defese but you will be hard pressed to convince the administration of this need. To them the only purpose a handgun can have is killing another student. This in their flawed ethical reasoning places you on the same level as Cho.
    You may find yourself facing adverse consequences with respect to your academic career. College administrators have a great deal of power over you while you are at school. there is all sorts of unpleasantness that they can unleash upon you should you make yourself a target.
     
  15. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    I am armed because I may face danger that could place me or innocents in my presence in immediate risk of death or severe bodily injury. Just read the newspaper. These situations happen EVERY DAY, and all over the country. I'm not afraid. I'm prepared.

    I'm not a Samurai. I don't do knife fights.
    Pepper spray won't repel an attacker armed with a gun or a baseball bat.
    I've never shot anybody, and I hope I never do.

    I know the rules and the risks. I will shoot if I have to.
    Whether you trust me to make that decision ultimately determines whether I trust you.

    Its really that simple.
     
  16. strat81

    strat81 Member

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  17. Hawkn

    Hawkn Member

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    Here in Nevada, we have a University Regent who is also a State Representative. During our last legislatve session, we has instrumental in getting procedures passed to allow faculty and, I believe, grad students, to carry on campus. But there is a catch, having your CCW isn't good enough. You have to attend training put on by the University Police. The training is 21 weeks long and you have to meet the same physical requirements that the campus police must meet.

    In other words, it appears that you must become an unpaid campus police officer to be able to meet the requirements established.

    Here we have a Regent, who I believe was trying to make the campus a safer place, but his good intentions were derailed by the campus police.
     
  18. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    The question is whether college students' lives are worth defending from predators.
     
  19. IA_farmboy

    IA_farmboy Member

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    Strat81 beat me to it. If you must mention VA Tech then you must mention Appalachian School of Law. Personally I'd avoid either comparison unless brought up by someone else. I'd simply make the comparison to the surrounding city as there should be less room for (mis)interpretation.

    One problem with using Appalachian School of Law as an example is that the students involved in subduing the attacker were also law enforcement. The school official may simply state that a private citizen cannot have the training to carry a weapon on campus that a LEO has. Whether or not that is actually true or not is irrelevant as the school official is under no obligation to grant the request, no matter how logical.
     
  20. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    Contact the VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) and have them put you in touch with Andrew Dysart (may have misspelled his last name) who is waging a similar battle with George Mason University.

    I'm sure he'll be able to give you a bunch of tips.
    Washington Times Article here
     
  21. Hook686

    Hook686 Member

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    ONLY nutcases carry a gun ...

    ... might be an unspoken thought. Carry of a weapon is certainly a sign of fear ... reasonable, or unreasonable. If unreasonable, whoever is doing the judging view, it would be an insane pastime, by an insane person (paranoid), with delusions of great tragedy ... perhaps with thoughts of 'Heroic rescue'.

    This is academia remember.
     
  22. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    Go here: http://www.securityoncampus.org/crimestats/index.html
    Then look up your school's name to see how bad violent crime is on campus there and in the adjacent public property and use that to show the campus is not as safe as they may claim if you find there are numerous incidents.
    The Jeane Clery Act requires campuses nationwide to report crime stats on and around campus to the UCR (Uniform Crime Reporting) the FBI compiles and that is what this sight accesses.

    If the incidence rate is not bad enough to show the campus is even remotely dangerous, then look up nearby schools too to express that if it can happen to them then....
    ...you are a college student, you can figure out the rest and where to go from there of course. :)
     
  23. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Wow, my school has a whopping 1 burgulary, and a TON of liquor offenses.

    Anyways, if youre anything like me, you are on campus late at night. Walking around on campus in the dark, after bars get out, gets fun sometimes. Nothign serious has ever happened, but there is the potential.
     
  24. TheOld Man

    TheOld Man Member

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    A point of note: Many school officials are under the impression that it is a violation of Federal Law for anyone other than a duly trained and authorized Law Enforcement Officer to carry any type of weapon within 1000 feet of any school property. My neighbor, a school principal, insists that is the law and that I just don't know what I'm talking about.
     
  25. WheelGunMom

    WheelGunMom Member

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    TheOld Man -
    The recent NV proposal for university staff is not being driven by ignorance of the law, it's being driven by the perception that the ONLY safe person on campus w/ a gun, is a person who's gone through the same police academy training as the campus police.:mad: It's also being driven by the desire for more free campus police officers, as noted by Hawkn's post. (As I understand it, you would have to work as a reserve officer one weekend a month if you go through the proposed program.)

    JamesM -
    I'd start by trying to find out if your university has ever granted such permission to carry, and if so, under what circumstances was it granted.

    Good luck with your request.
     
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