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Why corrosive ammo is bad for emergency supplies

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by WardenWolf, Mar 21, 2012.

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  1. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    Now, this is NOT a "SHTF" or other post-apocalyptic thread. However, it is intended to discuss the merits of corrosive ammo in an emergency situation.

    A lot of people buy corrosive ammo because it's cheap and, in spam cans, has an indefinite shelf life. That's all well and good for range use, where you can clean your guns thoroughly afterwards. However, for actual emergency use, you won't have that luxury.

    One, cleaning supplies tend to be very bulky, as well as give off noxious fumes. They will easily take up far more space and be more difficult to transport than the ammunition itself. But without them, your weapon will quickly degrade if you shoot a lot of corrosive ammo. On a semi-automatic, this includes thoroughly cleaning the gas tube, which gets absolutely filthy and requires a ton of supplies to clean.

    Two, the cost-per-round of 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo difference between surplus and Wolf or Bear ammo is more than offset by the cost of the solvent used, considering with non-corrosive you can get away with cleaning just the barrel and only cleaning the gas tube when it really needs it.

    When it boils down to it, corrosive ammo often turns into a false savings, and can seriously compromise your ability to maintain your weapon in the absence of proper cleaning supplies. You wind up paying more for supplies than the cost difference for budget commercial ammo. Of course, if you're only shooting a Mosin Nagant, surplus ammo can definitely make sense, but with any semi-auto, you're asking for trouble.
     
  2. ObsidianOne

    ObsidianOne Member

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    I use the same amount of cleaning supplies if I use Russian surplus 7.62x54R and if I use Brown Bear non corrosive 7.62x54R.
    You still need to clean your guns in emergency situations and if you're 'stockpiling' this should be included. Well maintained weapons ensure durability and functionality and should not be overlooked.
    Not to mention corrosive salts can be dissolved with boiling water.

    I, however, would not recommend using corrosive ammo in a semi-auto, but that's just my opinion. Bolt action has less parts to clean and less to worry about.

    Also, surplus 7.62x39 brass cased and 5.45 can be had quite a bit cheaper than their non-corrosive counterparts.

    What are you basing this off of?
     
  3. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    I've never seen immediate corrosion in a weapon... I've left them sit for weeks...
     
  4. Swing

    Swing Member

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    Interesting thesis, but am not real sure on the over all costing out. Out of curiosity, have you crunched the numbers that we can see?

    The corrosive ammo I run is 7.62x25mm in a Tokarev. Its mainly a beater/fun gun anyway though. ;)
     
  5. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    ....all you need is water and a couple drops of oil to clean up after shooting corrosive...

    How is that expensive?
     
  6. firesky101

    firesky101 Member

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    Not to bash, I love well thought out arguments, and you have thought. I would love to see the math though. I have the same bottle of hoppes I have been using for years, I just do not go through my cleaning supplies very fast, and yes I clean all my guns after every use. Also boiling water to remove the salts works fine, and water is cheap.
     
  7. Buck Kramer

    Buck Kramer Member

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    I use ammonia to neutralize mine corrosive ammo, $1 a gallon, not spendy.
     
  8. Fishslayer

    Fishslayer Member

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    OK.....
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    .
    .
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    .
    ...... And?:confused:


    You are not perchance trying to talk us out of buying that Yugo brass milsurp x39 are ya?:neener:
     
  9. ObsidianOne

    ObsidianOne Member

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    I've yet to see any proof that ammonia neutralizes corrosive salts.
     
  10. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    WardenWolf, clearly you have not shot and cleaned a rifle that uses corrosive ammo.

    If you had you'd know that we don't use powder solvents any more than for a regular rifle. And in fact I've noticed that on my Mosin Nagants I actually use very little solvent. But I do swab first with a couple of wet patches dipped in plain old water. On occasion I've also used some Windex to aid in cutting through the grime a little quicker.

    My procedure for the Mosin Nagant is to pass two or three water or Windex patches down the bore. By the second or third it's coming out clean so no need for any more. Following this I push a dry patch down. Then a patch or two dipped in my favourite solvent (Ed's Red in my case) to clean away any fouling that the water or Windex didn't deal with. Again if there's anything on the first solvent patch it's generally gone by the second or at most third one. I then pass one more dry patch down the bore to soak up the excess solvent/oil mix and I'm done.

    This can all be done literally within 5 to 7 minutes from the time the gun hits the work stand to the time I'm doing an overall wipe down with a slightly oily rag before putting it away.

    I hardly think one could call this amount of work an onerous or expensive task. I may use a couple of more patches than a non corrosive shooter but I don't see that as a big deal. Especially since I'm not adverse to using cut up paper towel for the water and solvent patches.
     
  11. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    The only corrosive 7.62x39 I've seen since '08 at distributors is Yugo.

    Russian Wolf and Monarch etc is not corrosive. Do the minor savings using corrosive Yugo (7.62x39) -compared to Russian- make it worth it, while requiring various components to be cleaned every day such Yugo ammo is used?

    "Ammo-seek" and "Ammo-deals" seem to be excellent sources.
     
  12. Fishslayer

    Fishslayer Member

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    Two major reasons it's in demand are:

    1. Steel free. Many ranges don't allow ammo with steel cases and/or steel in the projectile. They use a magnet to check. Indoors steel projectiles are hard on backstops and lots of ranges count on brass for $$$. Outdoors there is often fire hazard.

    2. Price. There is steel free non corrosive x39 available but it is usually pushing $1/round.


    Add in the fact that it is a finite resource that is drying up and everybody & his dog is buying up all they can.

    I have access to an indoor range that allows steel ammo so I can play with my SKSs, but my Mini-30 still needs the brass cased stuff.
     
  13. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    Those are excellent points Fishslayer.
     
  14. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

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    Corrosive ammo requires only water to clean. Not even clean water, just water. As long as it's moving fast enough to move the salts out of the barrel, it's good. Do that, dry it, and put oil on it (if we're thinking survival situation, that's a spray bottle and any and all types of oil you can find... these are mostly Russian guns, after all).

    It's super cheap (well, was), accurate, reliable, and basically lives forever.

    I keep about 1000 rounds of mixed Wolf/Yugo, and I don't feel at all disadvantaged by the Yugo.
     
  15. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    It depends. If it's something like a gas tube, where it gets impregnated in the carbon buildup, cleaning it is not so easy.

    I did some price comparisons of Wolf 7.62x39 and surplus. There's about a 6 cent difference per round. It's pretty hard to justify the extra cleaning time, effort, and supply costs for that little.

    I've got a Mosin Nagant, PSL, SKS, and AK. I won't shoot corrosive through the PSL anymore. Too big a nightmare to clean up. Gas Barrel, gas tube, muzzle brake. Major mess. Plus, it's not a high-volume shooter. For the AK, the cost difference just doesn't make sense.
     
  16. why.kyle

    why.kyle Member

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    Honest question, What did soldiers do when they fought wars with corrosive ammo?
    Im sure it wont be any bigger problem for them then it would be for an individual.
     
  17. Fishslayer

    Fishslayer Member

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    Google "Moose milk." ;)

    MooseMilk.gif

    For gas tubes, etc. I use nylon brushes from Harbor Freight. About $3 for an assortment. Anybody who's cleaned an AR for Uncle Sugar knows what the pipe cleaners ar for. ;)

    Brushes1.gif
     
  18. ObsidianOne

    ObsidianOne Member

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    You wouldn't normally clean carbon buildup off of your gas tube?
    I agree with semi-autos as there are more parts that are affected and it can be a pain in the butt to be more thorough every time, but like others have mentioned, other countries have been using this ammo for decades and their rifles don't rust into pieces when they charge into battle.

    I don't know what you're doing when cleaning your surplus rifles, but evidently you're doing something wrong, as it takes me less time to clean my Mosin Nagant than it does to clean my Ruger 10/22.
    I've shot hundreds of rounds of corrosive ammo through it without a single issue and all I use is Hoppes 9 and oil.

    .06 cents per round times 1,000 rounds is 60 bucks. That's pretty substantial considering that you're probably shooting quite a bit or stockpiling.

    I can't speak on this 100%, however I have been told the Yugo 7.62x39 is only minorly corrosive in comparison to the 70's Russian 7.62x54R.

    I think you're being a bit dramatic, sir.
     
  19. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    I think everybody gets wrapped around the axle over using corrosive ammo with little justification other than a bunch of internet lore....I have a Mosin and SKS that I have owned for over 2 decades with each seeing piles of corrosive stuff. Back before I was ever educated thru the internet about cleaning with water, I simply cleaned them with whatever bore solvent I had on hand and oiled them like any other gun...Guess what? Neither have nary a speck, spot, or trace of rust on or in them.

    With all that said, I also know that water will do a fine job of cleaning the corrosive residue from my experience with muzzleloaders over the years. I wouldn't have any problem stockpiling corrosive ammo for whatever emergency might come up, because I'd also likely be stockpiling water as well. In the worst case the world is gonna end scenario I can dream up, I wouldn't have any worries about boiling a pot of water and pouring it over my semi-auto to wash her down and then oiling her up as soon as the hot metal evaporated the water off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012
  20. evan price

    evan price Member

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    If TSHTF you are not going to be shooting thousands of rounds. It's not going to be some massive war of liberation led by John Connor against the Terminators.

    The stockpile is for BEFORE TSHTF for practice and competency.

    If you are planning for a SHTF type situation and popping off cans of ammo with no way to clean it up- you're screwed.

    You can clean a rifle with urine if you have to. And if that grosses you out you are NOT ready for TSHTF.
     
  21. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Maybe you could throw a cleaning rod and some oil in there, too, while you're burying your ammo cache. :)

    If it's not worth breaking down the gun and cleaning it afterwards, how big of an emergency was it? If you're still alive to worry about pitting and corrosion, then I'd say your emergency was averted.

    My cleaning gear consists of a couple rods and brushes, a piece of fishing line, a couple jags, a 4 oz bottle of CLP, some bronze wool, and on rare occasions I use a dab of Hoppe's from a 3 oz bottle I've had for 3 years. All that weighs about 2 pounds. And in a pinch, I could get by with just a pistol rod, a length of fishing line, and some motor oil. You're comparing that to a spam can of 300+ rounds of ammunition? Let alone, ALL my ammo weighs over a hundred pounds. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012
  22. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Im guessing in a true Fan situation your more than likely dead before corrosion effects the weapon... then its someone elses problem..
     
  23. The Sarge

    The Sarge Member

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    You are over thinking this entire issue friend.
    Overstating the corrosive aspects also.
    Pretty simple.
    Corrosive ammo has been used in battle and civilian life for a long long time. Look around. Lots of MilSurps looking pretty dog gone good aren't there. Not all ate up and melted are they?
    Just run a patch or two of any water based "cleaner" down the pipe and hit the bolt face.
    Your done.
    Clean your weapon like you would any other from there.
    You gun is not going to melt in your hands. Your barrel isn't going to look like a pitted sewer pipe before you can get back to your truck.
     
  24. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    im pretty sure this is how Bear Grylls cleans his guns......SHTF or not.
     
  25. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    Even in military combat, soldiers found time to clean their weapons. And a "survival" situation is nothing like that. How many rounds would you actually fire?
     
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