Why DAO/Long-pull trigger?

[heycods]

I was shooting a friends 40 other day, think it was a HD, I didnt allow triger to move forward after squezing off first shot, i was spooky on second shot so fast was near aouto fire. Yes I am a 1911 lover

 

[1911Tuner]

The "Gold Standard" 1911 never even pretended to be a gun built for "noobs."

Well, sure it is. It was handed to recruits before and during WW1, a good many of whom had never fired a gun in their lives.

Then, the same thing happened in WW2...and so on.

The 1911 wasn't designed and built primarily with law enforcement or concealed carry by private citizens in mind.

 

[hentown]

My experience contradicts most/all of the points made by moderator 9mmepiphany.

I do believe the OP's interjection of "legality" into this discussion was a non sequitur.

 

[Skribs]

I like DAO/striker guns because they're simple. It might not be *as* accurate as a 1911 in practice, but it's good enough to get the job done and requires less training and less manipulation prior to firing. While you can do that with a DA/SA pistol, after shooting you would need to put it on safe or decock. My pistols are already "safe".

As to why a DAO instead of striker? Simpler operation. No worry about the trigger safety getting tripped (which is possible). I like my glock-types, but I can see the case for DAO.

 

[tipoc]

From 9mm Epiphany

You've posted this a couple of times and I'm not sure I'm following your assertion. For me both trigger run with a full press to the rear to the shot going off, followed by resetting the trigger in recoil and pressing the trigger again as the sights are returning onto the target. As far as my experience has shown me, all DAO trigger use the same technique...the only difference is the smoothness and weight of the trigger stroke

Yes both the revolver shot in da mode and the dao auto require that you pick up the gun and pull the trigger to shoot. In this sense both "run" the same. While the smoothness and weight of the trigger is, as you acknowledge a difference, (less of a difference today than it was 30 years ago) it is a significant difference in my opinion and it is not the "only" difference. As I said earlier the ergonomics of the revolver favor fast and accurate da shooting. While the shape of the semi favors a lighter, shorter trigger pull. The length of travel of the trigger finger was originally quite different.

To give an analogy a Honda Civic and a Ford F150 both operate the same so you "run" them the same. But I don't agree that the smoothness of the ride is the only difference.

The reason for the introduction of dao semis and the reason for the recent rise of them are in some ways different.

The introduction of them began in law enforcement after the transition to da/sa pistols was well underway. S&W produced the 1046 and 1086 in 1990 for example as dao guns. Sig began producing dao guns around that time as well. The sale of dao semis to law enforcement though was quite small compared to the sale of da/sa pistols. If large numbers of cops were having troubles with da/sa semis and clamoring for dao it was a silent clamor. The bigger argument then was between single action pistols and da/sa ones.

This sale of dao guns to law enforcement was for liability and administrative concerns.

But over the last 25 or so years some things have changed. The da pull on da/sa guns has gotten smoother and the dao guns have gotten smoother. The DAK system was introduced about 2005 (the result of European police concerns by the way) and is heck a smooth and the LEM system is also smooth. There is a wider range of these today as well.

A good many like the simplicity of dao guns. Many feel they are safer than Glock like "safe action" triggers and less complicated than either single action guns or da/sa guns...no decocker, no safety, etc. If a person feels these things are complicated then what I think doesn't matter, to them it is a complication. I can shout at them that it's not but I don't see that working out well.

Homeland Security and other cop outfits like the simplicity and that legally dao guns may remove some things from the table. The administrators can believe and say that they have done all they could to provide the agents with safe handguns.

tipoc

 

[9mmepiphany]

Good explanation of you point, thank you

 

[JohnnyBravo]

All you are doing during that long first trigger pull is storing energy in the mainspring so the hammer will have enough energy to fire the cartridge.

 

[Ankeny]

As for the ERRONEOUS notion that semiautomatic handguns can't shoot faster than revolvers...well, that's erroneous. Maybe an EXPERT can pump out shots faster using slicked up, low-power loads in revolvers, but in REAL life where everyone else resides, the trigger on a 1911 simply CANNOT be bested by ANY other design. Note, I ain't talking accuracy here, I'm talking SPEED..."trigger reset" on a 1911 is no more than a thought. I love to fire semiautos rapidly, but nothing, not NOTHING comes close to a 1911 pattern pistol for pumping out "all eight" in 1.5 seconds ...

There was an interesting thread on Brianenos.com several years ago about "revolver splits". I don't know any higher level revolver shooters that can shoot splits as fast with a revolver as with a tuned 1911. That's because most split monsters are trigger slappers. Unless the difficulty level of the shot demands it, on close targets there isn't time to mess around just going to reset and/or messing around trying to prep a trigger by removing pre-travel.

However, fast splits can be accomplished by some of the better shooters with any pistol that has a short stroke/reset and a light pull. Low teen splits are routine with the best shooters whether they use a Glock with a Vanek trigger, an M&P with Apex parts, XD with Powder River magic, SP-01 from Matt Mink, etc. However, as a general rule, I do agree for most shooters the 1911 leads the pack in the trigger speed arena.

 

[sakata8242]

No need to turn off/on a safety or work a decocker. No silly levers and doohickeys hanging off the gun. I know, "but it's a training issue!" Yes to a certain degree but stress does funny things and even under simulated "stress" on the range I've seen plenty of seasoned shooters forget to take off the safety, turn on the safety, and holster without decocking.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I like this kind of trigger for pocket/backup/deep concealment guns. Such a gun is likely to be used at very close, even contact, distance, possibly with somebody trying to beat my head in, a dog chewing on me, etc. At this time I don't want to be trying to wipe off a safety or cock a little hammer with a one-finger grip on the rest of the gun, just grab, point and shoot. Some hiding places might also preclude a trigger-covering holster. I'm ambivalent about DAO triggers on larger, holster-carried guns.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A decocker is utterly useless once you know how to properly let a hammer down.

It doesn't make sense to let the hammer down on an M1911 or similar pistol. Just engage the safety and carry it cocked-and-locked.

 

[Elkins45]

Besides legal use, why equip a Semi with a long DA trigger? This whole business of "it helps reduce A/D in a stressful situation" is beans, IMHO. If you have your finger in the trigger guard, you are READY TO SHOOT. 1911 users know that once the safety's off, trigger-time means show time, and once the finger goes in that guard, you're shooting.

Likewise, I doubt that 1911/Glock/XDS users will have ANY more incrimination in court because "their trigger released the sear earlier/easier/quicker".

IMHO, putting a long-reset DAO trigger on a semi-auto neutralizes the point of it - semi's came around because Revo's couldn't put the rounds out fast enough, and they didn't have the ammo capacity. Why are you going to slow down a high-speed mechanism with a long-stroke trigger?

The ONLY reason I can think of is that a DA trigger allows for a "second-strike" on a hard primer, whereas SA models need to be recocked. Or cheaper manufacturing/easier manual-of-arms...but frankly I think that a long DA trigger is a more challenging setup to learn since there's more time to let the front sight wander...

Also, I can't understand the point of the decocker on a number of Semi's. If the pistol doesn't have a hammer (or it's flush), then a decocker makes sense (P99/HK LEM/etc.) But if there's a spurred hammer, that safety should be a full trigger/hammer/slide lock, ala the CZ75 or CZ82/83, so you can carry it cocked'n'locked. A decocker is utterly useless once you know how to properly let a hammer down.


Just some thoughts.
/end rant

So to summarize:"Other people don't think exactly like I do, and that bothers me."

I own several autos. Some are striker fired, some single action, some DA/SA, some long pull striker (Kahr) and some DAO. In hot weather I carry the Kahr because of the concealability. It's a long pull striker fired system, but I have heard it referred to as DAO. I didn't choose it because of the trigger system, but it doesn't bother me.

In colder weather I might choose to carry my S&W 1086 or more recently I have taken a fancy to a Sig P220 DAK LEO trade that I found at a really good price. I liked it so much that I invested in a set of Lasergrips for it. Why do I like it? Because I know myself, and that in a situation where bullets are flying past or perhaps even into me that I MIGHT just forget to keep my finger off the trigger. I have owned a normal DA/SA P220 since 1987, have carried it quite a bit over the years and have shot thousands of rounds through it. I don't shoot the new one any less accurately, and it lessens the chance that I might let a stray round fly in the middle or aftermath of an extremely stressful situation. Seems like a win/win to me.

I don't understand the need to "rant" because somebody makes a trigger system you don't care for. Just don't buy one. But please try to understand that 'different' isn't a synonym for 'wrong' anymore than 'bipartisan' is a synonym for 'good idea'.