Why did the Nazi's or whoever switch from the 7x57 to 7.9x57

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I have heard of people surviving torso hits from .58 cal muskets, but in all my time in the Army I have never seen or even heard of someone surviving a torso hit from a .50 BMG, not at any range, again their is more to termial performance the the caliber of the bullet in flight, My "puney" little 6.5x55 make a horrific bloody soup of the entire chest cavity of any deer I shoot, to say that is wounding beyond it's caliber is a massive understatement. Sorry if that is not a major case study, but that is real life.
 
Again, a 6.5 with expanding projectiles at hunting distances is an apples to oranges comparison. But, even the much vaunted 6.5x55 loses velocity over time, once the velocity dependant temporary cavity ceases to be an issue, results will be less impressive.
 
I have heard of people surviving torso hits from .58 cal muskets, but in all my time in the Army I have never seen or even heard of someone surviving a torso hit from a .50 BMG, not at any range,

Not surprising, considering that the .50 BMG Ball round carries with it more of the things that cause a bullet to kill at 2 miles than the .58 Minie does at the muzzle. (490 grain bullet/60 grains powder/960 fps nominal mv)

Because the Minie's shape caused it to lose velocity quickly, it's doubtful that the bullets fired at 200 yards...average initial engagement distance for a volley in a set/piece Civil War battle...impacted at much more than about 650-700 fps. I've read reports of soldiers actually being able to see the swarm of bullets coming when distances got longer than about 150 yards and the sun was at their backs. The .50 Browning is in a completely different class. Apples to oranges, I'm afraid. Rather like comparing a .22 Short to a .22-250.
 
I'm not going to keep searching the databases, but there are many documented instances of aircrew survival after hits from 12.75mm.
 
Again, a 6.5 with expanding projectiles at hunting distances is an apples to oranges comparison. But, even the much vaunted 6.5x55 loses velocity over time, once the velocity dependant temporary cavity ceases to be an issue, results will be less impressive.
Agreed, that is why they make 160gr :D but until they invent a 700lbs whitetail I am perfectly fine with the little 120s and 140s that fill the freezer every year. I am afraid it is hard to find a proper ballistics gel test for either of the original loads for the 7x57 or 7.92x57, we can compare them with modern bullets but as you have already said that really is apples to oranges, so anything we can say here is speculation at best unless we are talking about the core principlas of terminal ballistics, which as you pointed out tend to favor the larger caliber. Now if we were talking about the 7.92x57 vs the 303 that would be a different story. The Brits figured out early on that if they make spritzers very base heavy they yaw in a very quick and nasty fashion. That was easly the most effective manstopper of the medium bore world for many years. In my humble oppinion it outperformes our modern 147gr 7.62x51 on soft targets.
 
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but in all my time in the Army I have never seen or even heard of someone surviving a torso hit from a .50 BMG

And some of the instructors at SOI on Geiger liked to spout off about near misses taking a limb clean off... The records of survivors are out there.
 
BTW a 140gr 6.5x55 can maintain 7.92x57 muzzle speeds at 500yds and still has over 1500fps at 1,000 so I am getting a healthy shock cavity out at ranges I can hardly see. Good enough in my book :)
 
I am afraid it is hard to find a proper ballistics gel test for either of the original loads for the 7x57 or 7.92x57

The problem with gelatin tests is that they are conducted at ranges that demonstrate the effects of velocity dependant temporary cavity. That is why the reports of vivisection of combat casualties are a tad more useful in discussing terminal ballistics in regard to military use. M-855 from an M-4 does impressive things in a block at 30 meters, however documented wounding on living targets at range is somewhat less impressive.
 
BTW a 140gr 6.5x55 can maintain 7.92x57 muzzle speeds at 500yds and still has over 1500fps at 1,000 so I am getting a healthy shock cavity out at ranges I can hardly see. Good enough in my book
How hot are you loading it? I'm showing a .264 140 with bc of .496 retaining 1873 FPS @ 500 if it starts at 2700... 2036 if 2900...
 
Yes but the HUGE problem with that is that we are not messuring anything and the report is highly subject to the bias of any one resercher, hence not very usefull. You would have to be dealing with a double blind to keep information accurate and none of those studies did that to my knowlage. No I perfer to stick to things that I can messure because "reserchers" give contradictory information with such boring regularity that we have come to expect it.
Burger VLD 140gr .612BC 2800fps 52gr H1000 and a win primer. That is a standard pressure load, some folks do compressed loads of RL22 and have pushed over 3000fps, not in my baby though. I can get .490BC out of flat base partitions, no the capabilities of the 6.5 are much higher then that. 2100fps at 500 and 1500fps at 1000, that is why 6.5s are still so popular with long range shooters.
 
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Awww crap, now I have to order some. Thanks for giving me something else to pee money away on!:D Damn, shaves almost an inch off the mid range... Order placed.
 
Awww crap, now I have to order some. Thanks for giving me something else to pee money away on!:D Damn, shaves almost an inch off the mid range... Order placed.
You are welcome :D and if you hunt try 120BTs over 45gr IMR4350, accurate as all getup and the deer won't know what hit them, guys at the hunt camp swear I am blasting them with some large cal belted mag, the internal damage is THAT nasty. Needless to say I don't track my deer, you can bet money they all fall within 20 feet max of where I shot them.
 
RL-19 works too, little over 3000fps with a .458BC trajectory wise you would swear you were shooting a 130gr 270 win except the recoil is noticably lighter
 
With the bullet designed back then, against humans, I'm sure the 8mm Mauser was more lethal than the 7mm Mauser.
Another aspect not mentioned yet in this thread is the platform that shot them. The few weapons available, capable of repeating fire, (the new machine guns), were large, heavy, crew served, area weapons.
If the 7mm cartridge was selected, the troops would use the same type of slow reloading bolt gun anyway. The heavier recoil of the 8mm round was not really affecting the accuracy of the followup shots as the soldier had to reload between shots.

I guess the 7x57mm mauser showed up too early to be used effectively as infantry cartridge. There were no modern bullets to maximize it's potential, there were no automatic or semiautomatic rifles and carbines to take advantage of the milder recoil, and last but I think the most important point, the fighting strategies and doctrines were so old and primitive, that military organizations couldn't even understand the potential advantages of the 7x57mm.
 
I've personally seen a guy who survived 3 torso it's from a Ma Duce,
as for the switch, wasn't 7mm a Spanish round and the 93 a export gun?
so the germans never switched
 
Send me that link, I don't want to get too graphic but I have seen large chunks go flying, like a supersized varmint round, I have a HARD time seeing anyone survive 3 hits from that unless the were very grazing shots.
 
Don't have pics, like I said, PERSONALLY, I was a medic and he was the evac (claimed sheep herder trying to get a sheep unstuck from the exterior wire at a known infiltration point...)

he lost an arm, and a kidney, and wasn't purty when they loaded him up, but was in surgery in less than 2 hours after being shot, I had buddies in the surgery unit, how I know he walked out the front gate of that camp 3 weeks later (well was helped)

point is, no matter the size PLACEMENT is vital, and I wouldn't call loosing an arm and kidney grazing (2 in the upper chest/shoulder missing the lungs, but still MASSIVE bleeding from the chest tube, and one through diaphragm)
 
That would have to be one lucky Mofo, The result of the 50 BMG striking bone is horrific bone fragmentation, I won't comment on what I have seen it do to people, but I have seen a large mountain sheep get blown in half as the result of heavy bone being struck. If a 50 strikes anything hard expect dramatic results because nothing in the human body can even slow it down by any resonable amount.
 
I know the Germans never used the 7x57,I should of just asked why they used the 8x57 instead.The question has been answered for me.I have and reload 8x57 myself,I was thinking speed and trajectory wise about buying a 7x57 but first on my list is a 6.5x55 Swede.
 
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