Why Did the Ruger Gold Label SxS Fail?

[Kynoch]

Why does it seem to be such a huge deal to build a decent quality SxS in the USA for a halfway decent price?

I still don't quite understand why Ruger failed on their Gold Label SxS? Was it simply a poor design? Were they trying to achieve something that just couldn't be realized at the price point they wanted to sell the gun? Would it really have been a flop if they would have revised it (not sure how?) and upped the price tag just a bit?

I have an older Stevens SxS that is by no means fancy but it's rock solid and it was dirt cheap. How come no one in the USA is building decent SxS's and O/U's for a decent price anymore? Thanks.

 

[PabloJ]

Why does it seem to be such a huge deal to build a decent quality SxS in the USA for a halfway decent price?

I still don't quite understand why Ruger failed on their Gold Label SxS? Was it simply a poor design? Were they trying to achieve something that just couldn't be realized at the price point they wanted to sell the gun? Would it really have been a flop if they would have revised it (not sure how?) and upped the price tag just a bit?

I have an older Stevens SxS that is by no means fancy but it's rock solid and it was dirt cheap. How come no one in the USA is building decent SxS's and O/U's for a decent price anymore? Thanks.

It was pretty light gun with 76mm chambers and "trigger plate" round action design. Ruger designers wanted to provide affordable sxs with features everyone would want. Light barrels with choke tubes and magnum length chambers do not make good bed fellas.

If you want affordable sxs shotgun with quality built in you must shop second-hand. Two of the true bargains are Ithaca-Sakaba Mods. 100, 150, and 200 and from American Classic line legendary Lefever 'Nitro Special' by Ithaca Arms Co. Last 12ga Nitro with almost all original CC, barrel blue, and stock varnish sold for just $500.

 

[oneounceload]

It was a poorly built gun priced like a top-end Spanish gun but offering none of the features or quality of that Spanish gun. Since they couldn't charge more, and they couldn't sell them for what they were asking, it became a gun with no market. FOlks who are/were willing to drop the money on the GL could get a beautiful hand made AyA

As someone who once had a Red Label and had to deal with THAT poorly built gun, I wouldn't go NEAR a GL, and I LOVE double guns. Castings issues, price point issues, and on and on killed it

 

[Kynoch]

Thanks for the great input...

So is there no market for a cheap SxS along the lines of what Stevens and others used to build? I would think Savage would be all over that. Just too much foreign competition?

 

[JohnBT]

"It was a poorly built gun"

I'm sitting here with my feet propped up thinking it sure was pretty though. Then I realized I was thinking about the Kimber Valiers I've handled that cost $5k or $6k.

So, nevermind. I've never even looked at the Ruger.

John

 

[oneounceload]

So is there no market for a cheap SxS along the lines of what Stevens and others used to build? I would think Savage would be all over that. Just too much foreign competition?

Outside of African Double Rifles there is no harder gun to make and regulate well than the SxS shotgun
The problem is cheap and SxS cannot be done well - either you are willing to pay for the proper regulation of the barrels, or you go cheap and hope they got them somewhat in the same hemisphere - not usually happening unfortunately.

Does that mean that once in a while a Baikal or similar can't get lucky? Of course it can, but on a regular basis?....sorry, not happening

 

[huntsman]

Since they couldn't charge more, and they couldn't sell them for what they were asking,

I thought they were near impossible to get from the beginning, I'm not sure how many were made but I'll bet if old Bill lived longer they may have tried harder but the money is in plastic and taci-cool and the old man wasn't

 

[oneounceload]

There is a GREAT market for wood and blue steel in SxS guns, and many were hopeful he might be making a decent US SxS; he failed. Tony Galazan has made it happen, and if you want a new QUALITY US SxS, then the RBL is the gun for you

BTW, 3-4K is not considered expensive in this arena

 

[drsfmd]

They were very poor quality for the price. They also had a propensity to launch choke tubes downrange when fired.

The SxS was Bill Ruger's dream... and after he was gone, the company had no interest in making improvements on a gun that was a slow seller, fraught with problems, and didn't fit their move towards "tactical" guns.

IMO, the only decent shotgun to come out of Ruger was the 28ga. Not exactly sure why those are so much better than the 12 and 20ga RRL's, but they are. Tons of complaints about the 12 and 20, and I only know of a few who don't love their 28ga RRL. Of course, Ruger has now dropped the RRL as well... so they are out of the shotgun business entirely.

 

[MCgunner]

There is a GREAT market for wood and blue steel in SxS guns, and many were hopeful he might be making a decent US SxS; he failed. Tony Galazan has made it happen, and if you want a new QUALITY US SxS, then the RBL is the gun for you

Got one of his catalogs. I can't afford his asking price. 5 figure price tags, or near 'bouts ain't happening for me. The gun ain't as important as a house, or even a motorcycle. Can't ride it to work. ROFL

My Spartan works great even if it is fugly. It was CHEAP, 300 bucks, and I won when I got it. It is a utilitarian gun, though, and some of the things I've done with it I wouldn't do with a high end expensive gun, like take it out of the gun case, let alone drop it in the salt marsh. Well, I got stuck in a pot hole and had to swim out, longish story for this thread, ROFLMAO. But, I'm tough on guns. I have a once nice looking Spanish double (cheap, Sarasqueta bought on sale in 1971) that makes me cry when I look at it. That sort of hunting is what Mossbergs are for. I beat the hell outta that thing in boats, in bay blinds, in the marsh. It was well fitted and had beautiful walnut on it when I bought it, well, at least compared to a Spartan.

Anyway, I think for general hunting, one IS better off with a repeater for the mentioned difficulties with regulation and the lower replacement costs. If you hunt waterfowl like I do, plastic stocks and camo finish are desirable. My Sarasqueta shoots like a double rifle, amazing regulation, still shoots fine, but I hope a part never breaks. I don't hunt with it anymore, though, tight chokes and I just keep it for the memories. My Spartan shoots about 4" left with the right barrel and 4" right with the left barrel at 50 yards with slugs, but hell, at 30-40 yards on a dove, not a problem with 7.5 7/8 ounce loads. I don't need better barrel regulation than that. My 12 gauge pumps and autoloader are my mainstays for hunting.

 

[eastbank]

i had a chance at a browning bss sporter 20ga. double(made in the mid 70,s in japan) at a estate sale and bought it and i have used it for a few years now and could not be happier. 28 inch barrels F&M, single select trigger and auto ejectors with 3" chambers,i paid 350.00 for it. eastbank.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I hope you don't go bubba on us and cut the barrels off that Browning. ROFL Nice find! I'd open up the chokes on it, have considered doing that with my Sarasqueta, but don't wanna spend the money on that old thing. A Browning, I'd do it. There's always the Spred'r, or whatever it is, wads/loads.

 

[drsfmd]

i had a chance at a browning bss sporter 20ga. double(made in the mid 70,s in japan) at a estate sale and bought it and i have used it for a few years now and could not be happier. 28 inch barrels F&M, single select trigger and auto ejectors with 3" chambers,i paid 350.00 for it. eastbank.

That's made in Japan.

Aside from the WWII Remington contract "Brownings", I believe all Brownings have been made in Belgium or Japan.

 

[oneounceload]

and unlike Drsmfd, I have had the 28 RL and while I REALLY wanted to love that gun, three trips back to Ruger for repairs made it go away

Ruger just isn't a shotgun company - their castings seem to do the best in handguns and rifles - the tight tolerances required in shotguns do not seem to be their strongpoint

 

[MCgunner]

Ruger should build an all stainless gas auto and offer a camo version with polymer stocks made from the polymer they use in the P95 pistol. Make it to fire up to 3.5". THAT would be about as tough as a duck and goose gun could get. Offer the same gun in 10 gauge and sell it for under 2K and I'll start saving up for it. I understand they had a stainless RL for about 5 minutes. I never considered a RL, though.

But, the market for such a gun would be small, me and about 3 others in Texas, LOL! Truth be told, an affordable pump works fine for a waterfowl gun. I haven't managed to damage that Mossy 500 too bad in 20 years of nothing, but marsh hunting. Still looks presentable if not new. No rust, anyway, and still works. The plastic stock and camo finish really help.

 

[oneounceload]

And McG - that is why there is no Ruger pump - they KNOW they can't break into the Mossberg/870 market and make a profit - so they don't

And that's OK - a company realizing a certain segment is not viable for them is smart to save precious resources for something else - while they can't build a shotgun worth a damn, they seem to have cornered the market on small, inexpensive 380 polymers and the profit is a lot more on those than on a shotgun

 

[MCgunner]

Well, they do make a danged fine .22 pistol and single action revolver. Oh, I like the SP101, too.

 

[Kynoch]

Akdal MKA-1919​

I would guess that fairly soon, Ruger will be building a polymer/steel semi-auto tacticool shotgun along the lines of the MKA-1919. They are chasing the very markets that Bill Ruger eschewed...

 

[Kynoch]

Outside of African Double Rifles there is no harder gun to make and regulate well than the SxS shotgun
The problem is cheap and SxS cannot be done well - either you are willing to pay for the proper regulation of the barrels, or you go cheap and hope they got them somewhat in the same hemisphere - not usually happening unfortunately.

Does that mean that once in a while a Baikal or similar can't get lucky? Of course it can, but on a regular basis?....sorry, not happening

I have never understood this in this day and age? Get technical enough and all the variables (dimensions, etc.) that determine the regulation of a SxS gun (rifle or shotgun) at some pre-determined load could be determined, measured and be made part of the design specification. Precise production processes could then be designed and implemented to meet these variables and thus the regulation.

It not be a romantic, black magic, hit and miss process of years past, particularly on mass-produced guns.

 

[MCgunner]

I agree, Kynoch, I don't really understand why in this day and age of lasers and CNC, it's such a tough thing to do. I can understand it if you're a stodgy Luddite Englishman who wants to do it the old world way without concern for low cost, but you'd think the cheapest doubles could be reliably regulated now days. But, I don't know enough about it to know, so I just listen to folks argue the points on threads like this.

I would guess that fairly soon, Ruger will be building a polymer/steel semi-auto tacticool shotgun along the lines of the MKA-1919. They are chasing the very markets that Bill Ruger eschewed...

Well, old Bill wasn't always about making a profit. He had oddball ideas politically, didn't wanna get into the small carry pistol market probably for political reasons despite the fact that this is a HUGE market. Also, he seemed to have this penchant for over-design, great for single action guns with +P 45 colt loads or .454 caliber DA guns, but not so great for a carry piece. While I love the SP101, it is a might porky. Ruger has cashed in on that market since ol' Bill's demise. Old Bill is probably spinning like a top in his grave, but the company is a lucrative business and is chasing the markets that sell.

It seems to be the tacticool market that gets all the attention now days. When it comes to tacticool, I guess I'm a Luddite, because I just can't see the what for with tacticool stuff. I'm an old fudd hunter, not a ninja. I'm not particularly into SHTF stuff, figure I have accepted my Lord and savior and Revelations spells it all out, I know what's coming. Why should I have an AR15 in a BOB for TEOTWAWKI SHTF (did I miss any acronyms?) scenarios? And don't start talking to me about ZOMBIES. My sporting guns work just fine for me and I don't even have a BOB.

What that has to do with the Gold Label, i don't know. Sorry if I got off track. I think the OP has already been answered, though.

 

[Kynoch]

I agree, Kynoch, I don't really understand why in this day and age of lasers and CNC, it's such a tough thing to do. I can understand it if you're a stodgy Luddite Englishman who wants to do it the old world way without concern for low cost, but you'd think the cheapest doubles could be reliably regulated now days. But, I don't know enough about it to know, so I just listen to folks argue the points on threads like this.


Well, old Bill wasn't always about making a profit. He had oddball ideas politically, didn't wanna get into the small carry pistol market probably for political reasons despite the fact that this is a HUGE market. Also, he seemed to have this penchant for over-design, great for single action guns with +P 45 colt loads or .454 caliber DA guns, but not so great for a carry piece. While I love the SP101, it is a might porky. Ruger has cashed in on that market since ol' Bill's demise. Old Bill is probably spinning like a top in his grave, but the company is a lucrative business and is chasing the markets that sell.

It seems to be the tacticool market that gets all the attention now days. When it comes to tacticool, I guess I'm a Luddite, because I just can't see the what for with tacticool stuff. I'm an old fudd hunter, not a ninja. I'm not particularly into SHTF stuff, figure I have accepted my Lord and savior and Revelations spells it all out, I know what's coming. Why should I have an AR15 in a BOB for TEOTWAWKI SHTF (did I miss any acronyms?) scenarios? And don't start talking to me about ZOMBIES. My sporting guns work just fine for me and I don't even have a BOB.

What that has to do with the Gold Label, i don't know. Sorry if I got off track. I think the OP has already been answered, though.

During the Rigby (Paso Robles, CA) vs. Rigby (London, England), I remember the London group denigrated the processes (and materials) Paso Robles used. Some of the criticism was spot-on. One that wasn't was how Paso Robles was regulating the barrels.

Rather than rely on the old hit-and-miss tinkering and "experience", Paso Robles determined what variables controlled the regulation (at some sort of average load) and they engineered/built a precision process to regulate the barrels. That's just not cricket in some quarters I suppose.

Even better would have been for the assemblies to requite no calibration at all, by controlling those critical dimensions.

 

[JohnBT]

"Precise production processes"

I'm all in favor of modern technology and production. However, I also believe that if it could be done, someone would already be building reliable, inexpensive SxS shotguns. If there's money to be made someone will grab the opportunity, etc.

It's like the people who state that if only Colt would buy modern equipment, they could make perfect Pythons every bit as good as the hand made ones of old. So how come the companies that already have all this modern equipment still turn out their fair share of clunkers? Nobody wants to answer that one.

Tooling wears, computers are only as good as the programmers and operators, raw materials vary in quality and when you join two tubes together you get a new object that vibrates and whips quite differently than two separate tubes pointing in the same direction.

Re: "Rigby (Paso Robles, CA)" It certainly didn't make for a cheap shotgun, did it?

John

 

[eastbank]

my three hunting double barrels,top,a baker bativia leader in 16ga. middle, a browning 20ga. bottom a early savage fox 12ga. i use the browning the most for hunting,when i want to wear funny cloths when hunting i take the baker. the savage fox does not get used much. eastbank.

 

[Tom Held]

Ruger gold Label and woodside

I have a couple of friends who were fortunate to get their Gold Labels at the end of the production run. I've shot them, patterned them, and they are really nice guns for the money. I had one on order for two years and never got it. It's not unlike the Ruger Woodside that was produced for a couple of years. Really nice and somewhat unique OU. The sporting clays version with the lighter 30" barrels was well made. Both the Gold Label and Woodside were sold less than the manufacturing costs to try and establish a foothold.

If I could find either one at a reasonable cost I would buy it. But there is no comparison with the Galazan RBLs or the new A-10 American.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm all in favor of modern technology and production. However, I also believe that if it could be done, someone would already be building reliable, inexpensive SxS shotguns. If there's money to be made someone will grab the opportunity, etc.

It's like the people who state that if only Colt would buy modern equipment, they could make perfect Pythons every bit as good as the hand made ones of old. So how come the companies that already have all this modern equipment still turn out their fair share of clunkers? Nobody wants to answer that one.

Tooling wears, computers are only as good as the programmers and operators, raw materials vary in quality and when you join two tubes together you get a new object that vibrates and whips quite differently than two separate tubes pointing in the same direction.

Millwrights used to align pumps with dial indicators, took 'em a while. They use laser alignment tools now, much quicker and easier. I see stuff like this and wonder about double gun regulation, why someone hasn't come up with a better way, that's all. If I were smart enough and that was my field of study, I'd try it just because, LOL. There are some that just accept "the way it is" and then there are the innovators. I'm glad Edison was an innovator or I'd still be trying to read with a candle.