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Why did the Soviets swap from the TT33 to the Makarov?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by The Exile, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:38 AM.

  1. The Exile

    The Exile Member

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    From what I've read the 9x18 round is comparable in power to a .380 which seems kind of wimpy today (not that I want to get hit by one OC), maybe that was considered more acceptable in the 50s? However as I've read the 7.62x25 round used by the TT33 was a certifiable hand cannon with very zippy ballistic performance. For police I can kind of see the issue with over penetration but for military use why would they ever abandon a gun with significant armor piercing capabilities in favor of a peashooter? Is this a cost issue or something? I probably shouldn't judge based on looks but the Tokarev certainly appears to have the cheapo combloc stamp metal look to it that screams quick and easy to crank out
     
  2. Browning

    Browning Member

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    I think it’s because they were moving away from subguns like the PPSH-41 to the AK and there wasn’t going to be any sort of commonality between their pistols and main small arm at that point anyway. They armed whole divisions with the PPSH 41 and 43 as it gave them portable firepower in their wave attacks. It makes sense to have their pistol use the same caliber. Once they went with the AK to extend their range that was over.

    Plus it eliminates the need for a locked breech to a simple blowback pistol.
     
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  3. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Cause they are Russian? :)They also use AK 74 vs AK 47

    Why did the FBI go from 38 to 357 to 45 to to 10mm to 9mm? or whatever order they went
    Same with the Military 45 to 9mm
     
  4. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Considering that most of the postwar pistol issue would be to high ranking officers and political compliance units, secret police, etc, Im sure they requested something lighter and concealable.
     
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  5. MosinT53Hunter

    MosinT53Hunter Member

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    Another thing to think about is, the 7.62x25 will over penetrate, while the less powered 9x18 won't. Still, can't figure out why they went with the heal release vs. the push button release the TT33 has. Guess they wanted to make sure the magazines stayed with the pistol during battle?
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Simple, like much of their small arms development, they copied an excellent exisisting gun, the Walther PPK. They wanted a bit more oomph than .380, and the ability to still use a blowback design, hence the 9x18 round.
     
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  7. <*(((><
    • Contributing Member

    <*(((>< Luke

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    I've always wondered what a 357Sig necked down to a .30/7.62cal pushing a 90gr would do. One would start approaching some really interesting wound channels out of a handgun. Or better yet the 9mmx25 Dillon necked down to .30/7.62cal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 12:57 PM
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  8. total recoil

    total recoil Member

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    Sometimes I think they changed because the ammo was so expensive..... :) hehehehehehehe Just joking!
    I don't know why they changed, but I do know 7.62x25 ammo is terribly expensive in comparison to 9mm. It's too expensive for my tastes and at really put a hurt on the surplus sales market for those guns.
     
  9. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    One reason for the change is perhaps for better over safety. The T33 other than a half cock safety, has no other safety. I suspect, but do not know for sure that the manual of a arms was to carry it chamber empty when holstered. The cartridge choice, was maybe inline for how a soviet officer was to behave in combat and part of that was not leading a charge, pistol in hand. The T-33 was developed in the aftermath of the Russian Civil war when the local commissar and his comrades might be shooting it out personally with the Kulaks and whites. It was meant to be used in the same way-role as was the bolo-96 mauser pistol by the bolsheviks.
    The makarov is a modified Walther PP pistol and more suitable for a non-combatant officer. The russians now are reported to using at least some 9x19 pistols these days.

    220px-USSROfficerTT33.jpg
     
  10. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Money.

    The PM is a cheaper to produce pistol. For those few who needed more firepower oomph, got the Stechkin.

    And, 9 x 18 is adequate for the purpose intended.
     
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  11. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Sidearms for Officer's are primarily ornamental. A Vietnam era Company Commander, who was in many firefights, said "things have to be pretty hairy for Officers to be engaged in combat". Officer's are there to plan, manage, organize, and direct their men. It is the men who are the ones who are supposed to be doing the shooting. An Officer who decides to become some Marvel comic character and engage in hand to hand with the enemy is not managing his unit and he is putting his unit at risk. If he gets knocked off, by glory seeking, there will be a leadership gap in the unit which can cause a unit disengage from the enemy. So, a pistol, any pistol, is good enough for them.

    This is one reason British Officer's carried swords for the first couple of years in WW1. It was for show, for dramatic pointing, and for quick identification of rank. Swords were a bit long and pretty useless in trench warfare, and were phased out, but in 1914, you see a lot of Officer's in all the Armies, carrying swords. The ones that left their swords in their trunks went to canes, pistols, and whistles.
     
  12. tark

    tark Member

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    Gotta question this. A company commander "who was in many firefights", said that officers shouldn't be in firefights? Unless things got "pretty hairy?" That's what always happens in any firefight.

    Company grade officers (Captain's and Lieutenant's ) always have and probably always will, lead their men directly into combat. We have four General grade officers on Arsenal Island, one Lieutenant, two Major's and a Brigadier. (And a bird Colonel named Jimmy Hendricks ! ) I have conversed with them all and all of them have the C.I.B. on their uniforms. All were in combat early in their careers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 6:11 PM
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  13. Monac

    Monac Member

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    As barnetmill points out, the Tokarev TT-33 is not a very good pistol from the human-factors engineering point of view. And the cartridge it fires is bulky and awkward without having better terminal effectiveness than, say, a blowback 9mm cartridge to compensate. So based on actual combat experience (ie, the Great Patriotic War, known to you and me as World War 2) they decided to adopt a cartridge that would work well in both a fairly compact full-auto pistol (the Stechkin) and a small DA pistol similar to the Walther PP, but with a bit more punch than 32 ACP and somewhat easier to make.

    The Stechkin was to have been a (sort-of) pistol sized weapon that would actually be useful in combat. That is, the role that the M-1 carbine had been intended for by the US Army, but smaller and more submachinegun based. Meanwhile, the Makarov would be the kind of weapon normally giving to MPs, tank and aircraft crewmen, and others who needed or wanted a minimal weapon.

    The Makarov also turned out to make a useful police pistol, very comparable to what European cops were carrying, and a good replacement for the Nagant revolver in that role.

    The Tokarev may or may not have been easier to make. It was simple in that was single action and left out any safety devices, but it was locked breech and had a "packaged" firing mechanism that apparently did not turn out to be the maintenance advantage they hoped it would, or at least did not matter very much.

    BTW, I should say all the above is my opinion. I have not done any particular reading on this question. Once communism collapsed, a number of books by Russian authors came out on post-war Soviet small arms development, and some of them probably address this point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 6:42 PM
  14. Monac

    Monac Member

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    In combat, would the officers you mention be carrying pistols, rifles, or none of the above?
     
  15. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    Too many ricochets off basement walls/floor with 7.62x25.
     
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  16. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    I'll speak of Infantry officers...in garrison and training, everyone carried M9's. When we went down to Panama for Nimrod Sustain and Just Cause, they
    all carried rifles. You figure it out ;)
     
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  17. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    If you have West Pointers within reach, ask them if the Officer's Pistol Range is operational at West Point. A bud of mine who taught at West Point, in the late 70's, he spent his entire time there lobbying to have the range opened. West Point had closed the range down because the Army did not see a need for Officers to shoot their pistols.

    If you buy into the Hollywood Colonel KIckass, and General Ninja Warror stuff, then you have bought into a myth. Sure enough, junior Officer's have the lifetimes of fleas in wars, but if the 2nd LT learns his first job is the care of his men, and then learns to lead them, that is manage his unit, makes the right unit decisions in the face of danger, and manages to survive, he will get promoted. Ask a senior Officer if he was promoted because of his great round house kicks or body slamming abilities. Maybe he will demonstrate how he kicks the ceiling light out.



    Now there is a four Star in the making!
     
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  18. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    No need for plebes to get training during their academics, perhaps.

    Everyone on active duty, and in a Army National Guard or Reserve unit,
    is required to qualify on their assigned weapon, annually. That includes
    commissioned officers, warrant officers, non-commissioned officers
    and enlisted.
     
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  19. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    A word about the cartridge. It is a military cartridge for northern climates and it is one penetrating son of a gun for a military pistol cartridge. Under winter conditions people tend to wear heavy coats and layers of clothing. The 7.62x25 makes, when properly loaded, about 1500 fps from a pistol barrel. Many 3A vests have difficulty in reliably stopping it.
    Getting hit with one due to it being 'only' thirty caliber is not going to be a life saver for the one getting hit. I have never heard any complaints about its ability to put people down.
    Two of the reasons for the russians choosing the load. It was similar to what was used in the bolo mauser pistols that the Bolsheviks thought highly of and 2nd it is claimed that they could use the same barrel tooling on both the 7.62x25 and 7.62x54 barrels.
    It is a very reliable pistol, light wt, slim profile, and simple controls. Trigger, hammer, slide, magazine release. i consider it one of the best pistols ever used in combat. At one time it was in use in USSR, China, and their vassal states. I suspect that there were more T33s made than any other pistol that i can think of.
    Remember best means, always works and at close range will put hole through what ever it is pointed at everytime. Requires limited training to use. For a combat pistol I would chose the tokarev over the mak. For concealed carry I would choose the mak.
     
  20. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    I don't know how the manufacture compares with the Makarov, but my Romanian TTC is all forged steel. There
    may be some (heavy gauge) stampings in the trigger module, but the rest of it is similar to a 1911.
     
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  21. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    It is made by machining, but even then some guns are more time consuming to machine than other guns. i can see that the barrel of the T33 is simpler to make than that of the 1911. The locking lugs on the tokarev on done by just turning it on a lathe. No milling or grinding appears to be needed at all on the barrel except for the recoil lug-link area. I managed to get the photos of tok and 1911 barrel up for comparison.



    [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 8:55 PM
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  22. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    US Army TO&E assigns Company officers M4s.

    All the pistols in an Infantry Company are actually assigned to enlisted personnel, the M240 gunners....
     
  23. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Most of the little parts in a Makarov are cast, not machined from forgings*. The only forging in a PM is the frame itself. And, there are fewer parts than a TT30, not including the magazine the Makarov only had 28 parts in 26 permanent assemblies, about 1/3 of the parts in an M1911, and about 75% of the TT30.

    ________________
    * The trigger, trigger guard, safety, hammer, sear, trigger bar, and slide start as castings.
     
  24. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    Oh I don't know, a postwar transition from a combat pistol to an officer's pistol seems to make sense to me.

    Cost and features were probably the biggest issues. The Mak is a DA/SA (with safety and decocker) in fewer parts than a Glock, and 9x18 is about the sweet spot for a direct blowback. Sure, the TT33's barrel has lathe turned lugs, but the Makarov barrel is a straight tube with a feed ramp on a collar.

    Non-pushbutton mag releases have always been a big European thing. If anything, it's more surprising that the TT33 had a pushbutton mag release than that the Mak doesn't. With the Mak, it even fits into the economy of design. The heel magazine release is one prong of a flat spring that also serves as the mainspring and trigger return spring.
     
  25. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Are you sure they are and not maybe mim parts like what glock and other western designs use. I could find no details of how the various MAK type pistols are actually manufactured. Can you give a source for how the parts are made.
    I assume that the parts are steel and not even ruger does casting for many of the small parts. Easier to use bar stock for stressed parts.
    anyway please give a source.

     
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