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Why did the Soviets swap from the TT33 to the Makarov?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by The Exile, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. jar

    jar Member

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    One thing not mentioned so far.

    The Makarov transition and expansion was during the post WWII Cold War era. In the European theater 9mm Kurz aka 9mm Corto aka 380 was fairly common in both the civilian and even with some military. The Makarov design will chamber and fire a 9x17 380 round while the 9x18 Makarov round is too big to chamber in the Western 380s. If things had gone south that would mean the Soviet troops could use any 380 ammo acquired in the field if necessary but the NATO troops could not use captured Soviet ammo.
     
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  2. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    I am not sure why the soviet choose the slightly larger 9mm Mak, but it could be like you say so they could use .380 in their guns, but not the opposite. The russian rail gauge was a different size that was not compatible with many European rail cars.
    The Russian gauge was at one time used in USA and UK many years, but is said to have all been converted to the standard gauge for those areas.
     
  3. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Look up the 9x18 Ultra.

    That’s where they came up with the inspiration.
     
  4. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Look up the 9mm browning long that was used in the fn 1903 pistol.
    Cartridge 9×20mmSR Browning Long
    Action Blowback
    Feed system 7-round (9mm) box magazine
    Since the 1903 was used by nearby Sweden the Russians have always been aware of that pistol.

    The 1903 showed that more power cartridge than the .380 could be used in a blow back pistol as did the later astra 400 did for 9mm largo.
    the 9mm ultra was developed later than 1903 and might have influenced the 9mm makarov cartridge. No one really knows.
    FN 1903

    FN_Model_1903_002_%28cropped%29.jpg
     
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  5. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    FWIW, I dimly recall reading something that claimed the Soviets were dissatisfied with the TT30/33's button magazine release because it sometimes released the magazine inside the holster or at some other inopportune time. That was supposed to be the reason they used the heel release on the Makarov.
     
  6. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Just like a huge chunk of other post World War II ‘Russian’ designs, the 9mm Mak owes its lineage to captured German technology.

    They didn’t use a semi rimmed cartridge, they used that one.
     
  7. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    I have always thought that the profile of the browning 1903 influenced the TT33. The controls of course are different and TT33 has an external hammer. But, that hammer is recessed to give it the profile of a hammerless gun. I know that the russians studied other guns and copied parts of them to put on their weapons.

    upload_2019-12-3_10-23-12.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
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  8. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    MIM wasn't around when the Makarov production started in 1951, the polymer binders used are a recent development. Precision casting was just becoming "precision" in the 1950s.

    I read that precision casting was used in an East German article on the PM.
     
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  9. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Apparently it was like the AK, with the very first using a lot machining and then later for the MAK there was casting when the technology was up and running for the USSR. It is likely now days that new MAK may have sintered parts in them. https://www.all4shooters.com/en/sho...8mm-semi-automatic-pistol-technical-analysis/
     
  10. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    As said earlier, the Mak is an officer's pistol. A lot of Wehrmacht officers in WWII carried .32 Walthers for the same reasons - convenience. Pistols are largely ceremonial for officers, so why lug around a big hunk of iron all day?
     
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  11. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    I have noticed that pistols when carried in a soft holster that have side button mag releases will release the mag due to the bodies pressing against during intense pressure from physical activity. I have had this happen with more than one gun. Especially likely with pocket pistols carried in a soft holster.
     
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  12. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Delete.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  13. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    BINGO ! :)
     
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  14. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    My OPINION of this matter, which I developed over a 50 year period, is that the Soviets actually used humans to test the power floor necessary for the kind of incapacity they were after. They came to the same conclusion as Mafia hit men and earlier police depts in US and the 9mm Ultra project that slightly above .380 performance allows an unlocked breech and basically a .38 Special revolver ballistics.
     
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  15. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    The human's used for tests, coincidentally, were politically undesireable, of course.

    Better to have the slug defeat the skull, scramble the contents, but not exit. ;)

    Edit: can you imagine how deafening a 7.62x25 would be, in a basement!

    :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  16. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    A .357 mag revolver is worse and at one time that was a standard SD and police cartridge.
     
  17. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Sintering and MIM are not exactly the same thing.

    While both use heat and pressure to coalesce metal powder into a solid, MIM uses plastic binders to hold the metal powder in shape during heating, allowing very complex shapes to be made quickly and cheaply. In the 1920s-40s, mechanical means where required to apply pressure, so only more basic shapes could be done. One of the big volume items made by sintering by the Germans were steel bullet cores.
     
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  18. Dibbs

    Dibbs Member

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    DING! DING! DING! DING! Winnah, winnah, chicken dinnah! THIS seems like the logic of the pragmatic Russian M.O.D., at the time.
    For many military organizations, the pistol is more of a sign or badge of rank, rather than an offensive weapon. Meant for SD, in a fluid combat environment.

    OTOH, I've admired the Makarov round, a little wider than the 380, yet not as much penetration as the 9mm Luger, seems almost designed to get a perfect energy dump into it's intended target.
     
  19. Monac

    Monac Member

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    Thanks, lysanderxiii. That's the kind of thing I like learning about.
     
  20. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I wonder if the Chinese are doing the same thing to their criminals. They execute a lot of people every year. China has been accused for holding prisoners until such time that a foreign national organ recipient pays the organ fee. I suppose O positive prisoners have a very short lifetime after the verdict!

    No doubt the Soviets compared results after shooting 22,000 Polish prisoners at Katyn. What I read was that each Pole was shot kneeling, behind the ear. If someone was keeping records of bang flops, versus bang thrashes, they could make some very statistically valid decisions on bullet lethality.
     
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  21. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    How the chinese it do when they are in a hurry.
    upload_2019-12-5_20-49-38.png
    How they train for street corner execution

    upload_2019-12-5_20-50-35.jpeg
     
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  22. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    They had that tho in the PSM pistol, which is a lot smaller than the Makarov.

    My guess is that the Makarov is a lot cheaper to produce and easier to make than the Soviet 1911 AKA the Tokarev.
     
  23. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    I would tend to agree with this as not actually researching... More "secret police" than combat...

    Plus, I assume easier to make
     
  24. toivo

    toivo Member

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    This. The DA/SA Walther-like action of the Makarov makes a lot more sense.

    "In Soviet Union, you don't shoot pistol; pistol shoot YOU."
     
  25. zaitcev

    zaitcev Member

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    What is the point of all the guesswork if archive documents exist that plainly explain the objectives of the program?
    The objectives were simple:
    #1 Make it safer
    #2 Increase stopping action for self-defense of officers
    #3 Lighter and more compact weapon
    The production expense was a wash, although PM takes less raw materials and machining than TT. As the manufacturing continued, its processes were gradually streamlined, leading to a significant decrease in cost.
     
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