Why did we move away from Top Break Revolvers?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Correct me if I am wrong. but to my knowledge the later Webley and Enfield designs, in particular the later models have strongest locking systems around for top breaks. If Someone can produce an updated Webley in .357 Magnum(Way Overpriced) a Modern one in 9mm and .45 ACP should be bog simple.

I am sorry if I am being nitpicky, but I don't think the the existence of a tiny number of 357 Magnum Webley-type revolvers proves that a top-break 357 Magnum is a really sound idea. When somebody takes one or more of them and successfully puts it through a multi-thousand round endurance test, then I will be convinced. I like top-breaks and want such a thing to be feasible (at a price below $10K each), but the people here who actually understand engineering and firearm design factors make a good case against it.
 
Last edited:
I am sorry if I am being nitpicky, but I don't the the existence of a tiny number of 357 Magnum Webley-type revolvers proves that a top-break 357 Magnum is a really sound idea. When somebody takes one or more of them and successfully puts it through a multi-thousand round endurance test, then I will be convinced. I like top-breaks and want such a thing to be feasible (at a price below $10K each), but the people here who actually understand engineering and firearm design factors make a good case against it.
As an engineer I am fairly certain it is possible. You might not like the weight or the cost of the resulting revolver but it most assuredly is possible.
 
As an engineer I am fairly certain it is possible. You might not like the weight or the cost of the resulting revolver but it most assuredly is possible.
Well Webelys are still being used in many areas of the former British Empire despite their old age. And the fact they are still being made in places like India(abet in .32 S&W Long) and elsewhere.
 
Read post #43 in this thread, and talk to Driftwood Johnson about it.

Or post #17 in this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/modern-top-break-revolvers.867747/#post-11485396

I have read his opinion on top breaks several time here at THR and his knowledge of the history of top break revolvers is impressive but I disagree with his analysis of what could be done using modern materials and engineering. I believe we can make a top break strong enough for modern revolver cartridges. They will be much heavier than comparable close frames and/or they will be much more expensive than comparable close frames. There are materials available now and engineering design tools that can be utilized to make a 500 S&W top break if we really really wanted it. The problem does not lie in the pure engineering of it, but the resulting cost, weight, and marketing of the resulting product.

Very few people are going to be willing to pay several times the cost for a top break revolver in 44 Mag compared to a S&W or Ruger, since as cool as top break revolvers are they really offer no real functional advantage over a modern swing out cylinder revolvers. So despite the fact that we could engineer a top break revolver in any common revolver cartridge out there it would be a marketing/product flop due to cost and/or weight.
 
Last edited:
I can make a top break strong enough for modern revolver cartridges. They will be much heavier than comparable close frames and/or they will be much more expensive than comparable close frames.
Yes.

At some point there will be a trade-off between sacrificing longevity and designing in provisions for adjustments for stretching and wear.

All other things being equal, the solid frame revolver will be stronger and will have a longer service life than a hinged model of comparable size.
 
Coincidentally, I went shooting with a friend yesterday. The range we go to sells new and used firearms in the office. Yesterday they had one of those WWII era Enfields in 38 S&W for sale. I would have been tempted, but medical expenses have used up all of our spare cash recently.
 
Coincidentally, I went shooting with a friend yesterday. The range we go to sells new and used firearms in the office. Yesterday they had one of those WWII era Enfields in 38 S&W for sale. I would have been tempted, but medical expenses have used up all of our spare cash recently.

Unless it was one of the few that retains its hammer spur and single action cocking mode, I don't think you missed much. They are underpowered for their size, do not shoot to point of aim with US 38 S&W loads, and are not pleasant to shoot DAO. Excellent as pieces of history, interesting for the thought-process behind the design, but not my idea of a first-rate shooter, although I am sure some (especially handloaders) enjoy them.
 
Local outfit has a war finish Webley at an extortionate price.
I wish I had bought one of their last 250 polished up nicely and cased when they realized there was no longer a place for a revolver in the hands of an Englishman.

Webley would sell you a front sight blade of the right height for 146 gr commercial .38 S&W to go on your .30/200 revolver.
 
Last edited:
I think because they are so few and far between, people have this romantic notion that the top break is blazingly fast to reload compared to a traditional single action or hand ejector. Unless you're using speedloaders or moon clips, they are not, even compared to a single action. I like to run my sixguns fast and there's no way to manipulate a Schofield as quickly as a Colt or Old Model Ruger. A Schofield cut for moons is blazingly fast to reload but that is only relevant in a gunfight. For range use, those clips don't load or unload themselves and whatever time you saved in the reloading process is used tenfold in fooling with moons. Even with the right tools. No, I love the Schofield and need a Russian but for fast sixgun work, gimme an SAA and a dump pouch full of ammo every time.
 
It actually had a hammer spur, and they only wanted $325 for it. If it weren't for my recent medical bills I would have at least looked it over and considered it. (I like old firearms.)
 
I think because they are so few and far between, people have this romantic notion that the top break is blazingly fast to reload compared to a traditional single action or hand ejector. Unless you're using speedloaders or moon clips, they are not, even compared to a single action. I like to run my sixguns fast and there's no way to manipulate a Schofield as quickly as a Colt or Old Model Ruger.

Howdy Again

I must respectfully disagree with you. I shoot Single Action revolvers in CAS all the time. And I shoot my antique S&W New Model Number Threes fairly often too.

There is no comparison to how quickly one can dump all the empties out of a Top Break revolver. I don't use moon clips, my Smiths were built long before moon clips were invented, but even so, all you do is pop the latch, swing the barrel down while holding it slightly sideways, and all the empties come flying out. Which is exactly why S&W developed the Top Break revolvers in the first place.

Let's look at history for a moment. Smith and Wesson controlled the Rollin White patent for cylinders with chambers bored through to accept cartridges. Contrary to popular opinion, S&W did not own the patent, White refused to sell the rights to it. But he did license S&W to manufacture revolvers requiring S&W to pay him a royalty for every revolver they made. I forget now if the royalty was 25 cents or 50 cents per revolver, but when S&W started producing their little Tip Up revolvers in 1857 it came to a sizeable amount. So S&W merrily made thousands of little revolvers, and no other American manufacturer could produce a revolver with chambers bored through for cartridges. Which drove Sam Colt crazy because when White worked for him he had passed on the idea to patent White's idea. So all through the Civil War, Colt and Remington were making scads of big Cap & Ball revolvers, but they could not make any cartridge revolvers or S&W would sue the pants off of them.

The three revolvers at the bottom of this photo are what I am talking about. They are S&W Tip Up revolvers. Up from the bottom they are a No 1 seven shot revolver chambered for what we would call today the 22 Short, a No 1 1/2, a five shot revolver chambered for 32 Rimfire, and a No 2, commonly called the Old Army, a six shot revolver chambered for 32 Rimfire. The big revolver at the top of the photo is a 2nd Model Russian Top Break. These were built on what S&W called the No. 3 sized frame. This photo is just to illustrate how small the Tip Ups were.

pnK8iOsvj.jpg




This is a No 2 Old Army with six 32 Rimfire rounds.

plS1uHScj.jpg




This is how you loaded a Tip Up. The barrel latch at the bottom of the barrel was raised to unlatch it, then you rotated the barrel up, hence the name Tip Up. Then you pulled the cylinder off its arbor, and poked the spent rounds out of their chambers with the rod underneath the barrel. Then you loaded fresh rounds, popped the cylinder back in place, rotated the barrel back down and latched it in place. A surprisingly simple design. Not particularly fast to reload, and not very powerful. But this is what S&W was manufacturing all the time Colt et al were limited to producing C&B revolvers. (yes, there were cartridge conversion models of the C&B revolvers, but they were just a stop gap.) The Old Army was popular with Union officers, but they generally bought them with their own money.

pnyiKQo5j.jpg




Crafty old Daniel Wesson was sure the competition was going to be ready to pounce with their own cartridge designs when the White patent expired in 1869, so he developed a completely new type of revolver.

The Top Break. Break it open and rotate the barrel down, and an extractor pops up and automatically ejects all the empties.

Like the Russian model pictured above.

plxizRG5j.jpg




Or a New Model Number Three.

pnLBZ4WYj.jpg




Or an American Model, Schofield, or 44 Double Action, the three other models built on the big #3 sized frame.

The same with any of the smaller pocket pistol sized Top Breaks.

The first Top Break was the American model, and it featured a 44 caliber cartridge. S&W had experimented with a 44 caliber Tip Up but the mechanism was not strong enough for that large a cartridge.

I have done side by side comparisons. With a Colt you have to manually eject each empty one at a time, rotating the cylinder manually for each chamber, then you have to reload one chamber at a time, again rotating the cylinder manually for each chamber. Watch an old cowboy movie and you will probably see an actor doing so, just as it had to be done in real life.

With a Top Break, you break it open and dump out the empties in one fell swoop. Even without speed loaders it is then quicker to grab a couple of rounds at a time and pop them in the chambers, loading 5 (yes five) before swinging it shut.

Hands down much faster than loading a Colt.

I can tell you if I was in a gunfight in the Old West I would have much preferred having a Top Break than a Colt.

Oh, I forgot to mention. 1869 rolled around, the White patent expired, S&W introduced the American Model, the first of their Top Breaks, and Colt and Remington were nowhere to be seen. When Colt got around to introducing the Single Action Army in 1873, and when Remington introduced their version in 1875, these revolvers were basically upgrades of the old C&B revolvers. Unload and load one chamber at a time, while the Top Breaks could be unloaded and loaded in half the time.

Yes, I have done it.
 
Last edited:
In addition many of the top break revolver will accept modern speed loaders. I have used my Comp III I normally used with 38 Specials in my Model 10 to feed 38/200 to my Webley Mark IV an the Comp I that I use for my J-frame to feed 38 S&W to my Iver Johnson Safety Automatic. N-frame moonclips work with a shaved Webley Mark VI it would be interesting to see if you could tweak an N-frame speed-loader to work with the slightly larger rim diameter of 455 Webley for an unshaved Mark VI. Has anyone try N-frame speed loaders with the Schofields or S&W top breaks?
 
Like I've never done it??? Do you reload fast or take your time? When I'm in the groove, I can fire five shots, reload and fire five more shots in 15secs out of a Colt SAA, replica or Old Model Ruger. Never could even get close with the Schofield. Sure it 'sounds' slower but you have to deliberately insert each cartridge into the chambers of a top break or DA. With the Colt style single actions, all you have to do is drop them in the loading port. It can be done VERY quickly. Unloading takes 2-3secs tops. The top breaks and hand ejectors are quicker to dump the empties and that is all.

Somewhere there's a picture of Jim Taylor running a Ruger fast. He had three empties on the way to the ground before the first one landed.
 
The best I can do with a Colt is reload five rounds in about 20 seconds. Just empty and reload, does not include shooting. I do not shoot very fast.

Have not actually timed doing a Top Break, one of these days I will have to time it.
 
Found this thread and thought I'd comment in there.

It's interesting that some posters here are yearning for a top break made with modern materials, when such a beast is available already from Uberti. I purchased a few top breaks over the years, a 1920's H&R Hammerless in .32 S&W, a nickle plated, 5 shot Eibar S&W copy in .38 S&W, a H&R Sportman .22 9 shot .22LR, and finally a Uberti Schofield Mod.#3 in .45LC.

The Schofield is made with modern materials, using modern techniques, and Uberti also made some improvements to the latch, using a stirrup style latch to prevent unlocking while firing. As previously mentioned, it probably costs a lot more to make a top break than a typical SAA, evidenced by nearly double the cost. Another thing I noticed is that other Italian makers (namely Pietta), doesn't even offer a top break, which leads me to believe that the complexity of setting up the tooling and manufacturing costs make it financially not feasible for them.

Another thing I noticed is that while Uberti makes a lot for their SAA models in a variety of calibers, including .357 and even .44 magnum, but they don't offer any Magnum chamberings for their top breaks.

One final thought on the ease of loading and unloading. While I'm sure there are those that have become very adept at loading and unloading an SAA, but for the average shooter the top break is a lot faster. Moreover, the original intent of the top break, was not so much about speed of loading, as the ability load the gun while on horseback. You could open up the action with your shooting hand, which emptied the gun, then transfer it to your hand holding the horse reins, and reload it with you shooting hand. All this while riding at full gallop by a regular cavalryman, not a gunslinger.
 
Found this thread and thought I'd comment in there.

It's interesting that some posters here are yearning for a top break made with modern materials, when such a beast is available already from Uberti. I purchased a few top breaks over the years, a 1920's H&R Hammerless in .32 S&W, a nickle plated, 5 shot Eibar S&W copy in .38 S&W, a H&R Sportman .22 9 shot .22LR, and finally a Uberti Schofield Mod.#3 in .45LC.

The Schofield is made with modern materials, using modern techniques, and Uberti also made some improvements to the latch, using a stirrup style latch to prevent unlocking while firing. As previously mentioned, it probably costs a lot more to make a top break than a typical SAA, evidenced by nearly double the cost. Another thing I noticed is that other Italian makers (namely Pietta), doesn't even offer a top break, which leads me to believe that the complexity of setting up the tooling and manufacturing costs make it financially not feasible for them.

Another thing I noticed is that while Uberti makes a lot for their SAA models in a variety of calibers, including .357 and even .44 magnum, but they don't offer any Magnum chamberings for their top breaks.

One final thought on the ease of loading and unloading. While I'm sure there are those that have become very adept at loading and unloading an SAA, but for the average shooter the top break is a lot faster. Moreover, the original intent of the top break, was not so much about speed of loading, as the ability load the gun while on horseback. You could open up the action with your shooting hand, which emptied the gun, then transfer it to your hand holding the horse reins, and reload it with you shooting hand. All this while riding at full gallop by a regular cavalryman, not a gunslinger.

One thing you missed is that many of us in this thread are yearning for a top break revolver are yearning for a double-action top break revolver. And to date, unfortunately they have only made single action replicas of the Schofields versions and no replicas of the big bore Webleys or S&W. At present there are no modern replicas of double-action top break revolvers available new on the current US market. There is a possibility of a 32 caliber clone of the Webley made in India coming to the US but otherwise the double-action top break revolver market offering is a barren waste land.

I think I said this earlier but it bears repeating. If someone offered a quality and faithful replica of a Webley Mark VI in the original 455 Webley made from modern alloys my credit card will catch fire coming out of my wallet so fast. :D
 
I would agree that solid frame revolvers are stronger than break-open revolvers, and also that a 2-piece connection between barrel and frame of any kind will eventually lead to loosening and then stretching.
However, I believe that there is a great difference between weak top strap locking designs like the various 19th century S&W service revolvers / pocket revolvers / copies, and with the Webley stirrup lock revolvers.
Also, the metallurgy is a huge factor in such guns, with 19th century steels being weaker by comparison to modern steels.
Certainly a large frame revolver with a modern lockwork design and a Webley stirrup lock, made with modern steels, and used with cartridges like .45 ACP and .45 Colt would probably last as long as any solid frame revolver would in normal use.
 
yearning for a double-action top break revolver
Yeah, I missed that. I'm not a big fan of double-action "actions", so for me single action is what I use even on guns that are double action. As long as there's a spur to pull back on, I use it.
 
The top breaks and hand ejectors are quicker to dump the empties and that is all.
They are faster to dump the empties, but they are also faster to reload since all the chambers are accessible at once. Even without a speedloader, one can easily load 2 rounds at a time, halving the time required to fully charge a 6 shot cylinder. With a speedloader or moonclips, all of the chambers can be filled in about the same time required to charge only one.
 
The Schofield is made with modern materials, using modern techniques, and Uberti also made some improvements to the latch, using a stirrup style latch to prevent unlocking while firing.

Howdy

That is not correct. The latch on an Uberti Schofield is exactly like the latch on an original Schofield.

Smith and Wesson made five distinct models on the large #3 sized frame. The American, Russian, Schofield, New Model Number Three, and the 44 Double Action.

Here is a photo of an original 1st Model Schofield on the top and a 2nd Model Russian on the bottom. Notice the 'stirrup' type latch on the Schofield.

pm1RkbR2j.jpg




The Schofield model was the only one of the five that incorporated that style of latch. The latch was patented by Lt. Colonel George as an improvement on the latch that first appeared on the American model. When S&W manufactured the Schofield model they had to pay a royalty to Schofield for every revolver produced. Naturally, skinflint old Daniel Wesson set his engineers to work to come up with a similar latch that did not violate Schofield's patent. The Schofield revolver was only produced for a short time, from 1875 until 1877 in two slightly different models, and a total of only a bit more than 9,000 were ever produced, so S&W never came up with a replacement for Schofield's latch. You are correct that the Schofield latch was developed specifically to allow a mounted trooper to open the gun and reload while riding because it only required one hand to operate the latch. You are incorrect in stating that the Schofield latch prevented the gun from opening when fired. As a matter of fact, the early Schofield replicas produced by ASM would open up on firing quite regularly.

Here are a couple of views of the Schofield latch, no different than the ones made by Uberti today.

pmHoe9wqj.jpg


poRK1huij.jpg




The other style of latch that was incorporated in the other four #3 Top Break revolvers is sometimes referred to as a T Latch.

Here is the latch on the Russian model. A spring loaded T shaped piece was raised up by the thumb.

pna9ejTij.jpg




The T shaped piece fitted over two posts on the frame to achieve lockup.

plxizRG5j.jpg




This is the style of latch used on all the other S&W #3 Top Break revolvers. Here is the latch on a New Model Number Three.

pnLBZ4WYj.jpg




There were several different latch designs used on the smaller S&W Top Break revolvers, but other than the Schofield, all the big #3 Top Breaks had this type of latch.

And it was not prone to opening when the gun was fired.

At least mine never do.

pojp5d3pj.jpg
 
They are faster to dump the empties, but they are also faster to reload since all the chambers are accessible at once. Even without a speedloader, one can easily load 2 rounds at a time, halving the time required to fully charge a 6 shot cylinder. With a speedloader or moonclips, all of the chambers can be filled in about the same time required to charge only one.
Having all the chambers accessible isn't an advantage. Each cartridge has to be deliberately inserted into each chamber. At most you can load two at a time, which means you're going to your ammo supply three times, doing everything with one hand and that eats up a lot of time. The loading port of a single action is like a funnel. I can grab five or six rounds at once and drop them into the loading port, letting gravity do the rest while I rotate the cylinder with the other thumb far more quickly than you can load a DA or top break.

As I said, it's only quicker with speedloaders or moon clips.
 
As I said, it's only quicker with speedloaders or moon clips.
Ok, I went back to your previous post and found this assertion. I was responding to the post I quoted which didn't mention either speedloaders or moon clips.

Honestly, I had never really tried to speedload a hand ejector without a speedloader, but your post interested me.

So, figuring that I can shoot 6 shots in 2 seconds (I think I can beat that, but let's just go with that figure) that's 4 seconds worth of shooting for 12 shots. That means if I want to beat 15 seconds, I need to be able to perform a reload in less than 11 seconds without a speedloader or moonclips.

Took me a few minutes to figure out how to do it, and maybe another 10 or 15 to get the technique down. It has absolutely no practical value that I can tell, but I managed to get to where I can reload consistently in 9-10 seconds from an ammo box.

Set 6 rounds in a typical ammo box lined up in two rows of three. Grab 3 at a time and load all three at once. Pretty much requires Jacketed RN ammo. Anything with much of a shoulder is going to hang up and the jacket makes it slide in easier than lead would. But I don't think that's much of an issue since the practical value is nil anyway.

I think the same approach would work just as well for a top-break but I don't have one to play with with.

Anyway, I think anyone wanting to go for speed would use a speedloader or moonclips, both of which would take full advantage of having the entire cylinder face open for reloading.
 
The only SAA style revolver I have experience with is a Ruger Bisley Single Six in 32 Magnum. The idea that the cartridges could just be dropped into the chambers - especially on a reload, when the chambers would be dirty - is startling to me. My main recollection regarding loading and reloading that gun was the fiddling exactness with which the cylinder had to be aligned with the loading gate to get empty shells out or fresh cartridges in. I got tired of it, despite the gun's good accuracy, and sold it long ago.

Perhaps years have exaggerated the memory, or perhaps I was doing something wrong. Perhaps the Ruger loading gate was a tight fit on 32s because the gun was originally designed as a 22, and maybe the Colt loading gate is big even for a 45. But the idea that reloading a Colt SAA could be faster than loading a top-break boggles me. Yes, someone might be faster than I am, but I would suggest they have spent years of effort in acquiring that skill, while I have not practiced fast reloads of any kind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top