Commissar Gribb
Member
9 times out of 10, a 9mm will be more effective than being unarmed 
Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber
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CAnnoneer
Member
What does Adolf Hitler personally have to do with the 9mm anyway?
Finding the Nazis politically/ethically repugnant should not cloud your judgment about the quality of their weapons tech or their military competence. For a nation, society, and ideology obsessed with perfection and efficiency, they would be very much out of character to design and use inferior weapons.
I still find it very difficult to see the root of the hatred some have for the 9mm. You don't like it, don't use it. Why bend out of shape trying to convince everybody that the 9mm is "worthless", "substandard", "overhyped", "undeserving" etc. ? Do you doubt your own choices on the ground of popularity contests? Do you envy the inexpensive ammo? The higher capacity? The lower recoil? The faster reacquire and followup? There must be a reason for this emotional reaction.
Getting back to the original question, I noticed something odd last month at our bowling pin shoot. Last year I used 115gr. FMJ made by Federal (Gov't overruns) and had no problems knocking the pins off the table. Surprised everyone there who had just finished saying a 9mm wouldn't work. This year, same gun with "HOT" ammo wouldn't reliably knock pins down let alone off. This was with my carry ammo (Winchester Ranger 147gr. "T") which were loads intended for law enforcement!!! Needless to say, I started carrying other ammo!!
Take it for what it's worth.
Take Care,
Mike
Needless to say, I started carrying other ammo!! Take it for what it's worth.
Take Care,
Mike
The Ranger T's in 147-gr. are not very hot, but do achieve 990 fps in a 4" barrel. In comparison, standard pressure Speer Gold Dots in 124-gr. have more recoil.
In Pin Shooting, heavier / slower bullets work the best.
Example of the top three 9mm SD loads:
* Double Tap's 147-gr. +P Gold Dot load is under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo) and yet it achieves 1,135 fps in a Glock 17, using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121
* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19) consistently achieve about 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=419125&goto=newpost
* Golden Saber 147-gr.
Nothin' else out there on the market beats the top 3 as far as self defense is concerned. For Bowling Pins, it's another story!
Steve
P.S. Stick with the Rangers for self defense and it's unwise to compare them to bowling ball performance in making good decisions.
In Pin Shooting, heavier / slower bullets work the best.
Example of the top three 9mm SD loads:
* Double Tap's 147-gr. +P Gold Dot load is under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo) and yet it achieves 1,135 fps in a Glock 17, using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121
* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19) consistently achieve about 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=419125&goto=newpost
* Golden Saber 147-gr.
Nothin' else out there on the market beats the top 3 as far as self defense is concerned. For Bowling Pins, it's another story!
Steve
P.S. Stick with the Rangers for self defense and it's unwise to compare them to bowling ball performance in making good decisions.
It's interesting Steve, that you say for bowling pins , heavy and slow is what's needed! I WON with 115gr. FMJ, LOST with the 147gr. R9T's. I never said that bowling pins were a good test media, just found it interesting. The ME is a friend of mine, maybe I'll ask what (if anything) he's seen with the 147gr. T's. If I find anything I'll get back to you guys.
Take Care,
Mike
Take Care,
Mike
carebear
Member
Would it be possible to load the Speer 135 gr. .38 bullet into a 9mm case?
I wouldn't think OAL would be a problem vice the 147's. Would the .002 diam increase create pressure problems?
Not a reloader, but wouldn't that give us a well-designed hollowpoint in a "heavy" bullet weight for 9mm that could be pumped out a little faster at the same pressures than the 147?
I wouldn't think OAL would be a problem vice the 147's. Would the .002 diam increase create pressure problems?
Not a reloader, but wouldn't that give us a well-designed hollowpoint in a "heavy" bullet weight for 9mm that could be pumped out a little faster at the same pressures than the 147?
I don't know that I would try loading a 38 cal bullet in a 9, Carebear. It would really depend on the individual weapon, and I would recommend you slug the barrel first. Some of the older 9MM's actually could take a .358 cal jacketed bullet, but I think you are asking for trouble if you don't take the necessary precautions.
Island Beretta
Member
with the number of fatal injuries the 9mm has inflicted, I am sure glad it isn't anymore lethal.. 
carebear
Member
Thanks Delmar,
Not being a reloader it's hard for me to internalize thousanths of an inch being that significant. "know" its important versus KNOW, if you get my drift.
Not being a reloader it's hard for me to internalize thousanths of an inch being that significant. "know" its important versus KNOW, if you get my drift.
If Taurus actually comes out with their triad guns, then you could load .357/.358 bullets into a 9mm, no problem. That would be pretty cool actually, to have a semi-jacketed lead hollowpoint 158 gr .38 special bullet in a hot 9mm load/case, used with moon clips. I like. 
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627SS&category=Revolver
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627B&category=Revolver
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627SS&category=Revolver
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627B&category=Revolver
blackpanther
Member
Pin shoots
You won't be allowed to shoot long but the 115 gr Federal 9BPLE 9mm +P+ will literally turn a pin in to saw dust. As far as the 147 gr stuff,it better be a very close fight unless you get a barrel with a different twist rate.
Ed
You won't be allowed to shoot long but the 115 gr Federal 9BPLE 9mm +P+ will literally turn a pin in to saw dust. As far as the 147 gr stuff,it better be a very close fight unless you get a barrel with a different twist rate.Ed
RecoilRob
Member
"Experts" look at data to try to figure out what is best. Unfortunately, the 'data' is hard to assimilate without a firm grasp on what is going on here.
Most people who need shot will stop when they are shot at or hit. Something like 90% fall into this category. So, a bullet that gets their attention with a less than CNS hit will look better in the 'stats'.
But, those 10%ers need to be shut down and only a very deep penetrating bullet in the right place will do that job. The 'stats' may NOT include ANY shootings of these hardcore types but they MUST be kept on the table when choosing ammo.
Jello tests will show a comparison of expansion vs. penetration and the wise person will choose the deeper penetrating round with the "10%er" in mind.
Most people who need shot will stop when they are shot at or hit. Something like 90% fall into this category. So, a bullet that gets their attention with a less than CNS hit will look better in the 'stats'.
But, those 10%ers need to be shut down and only a very deep penetrating bullet in the right place will do that job. The 'stats' may NOT include ANY shootings of these hardcore types but they MUST be kept on the table when choosing ammo.
Jello tests will show a comparison of expansion vs. penetration and the wise person will choose the deeper penetrating round with the "10%er" in mind.
sarge48
Member
Much to do about nothing. Put the pill where it needs to go and don't worry about what caliber you are shooting. I carry 147 grain hydrashocks daily at work. They work, and they are accurate. Let it go.
JERRY
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go ask REAL experts.............
so, some "expert" says the 147gr. 9mm isnt a top performer?
go ask the San Diego P.D. how they like it. theyve logged numerous shooting with the 147gr. 9mm, they are very happy with it.
not sure of the exact loading they use, but their "experts" are backed up by real world shootings of bad guys, not old data from sub-gun loads used in pistols.......
look at the paper numbers for starts, it penetrates deeper and better than the .357sig, it expands just as well as the .357sig, it kicks a lot less than the .357sig (allowing better shot placement in rapid fire...)
now add that to a prooven street record with no fuzzy math for o.s.s. and its a top performer.
anyone know exactly what loading S.D.P.D. uses?
so, some "expert" says the 147gr. 9mm isnt a top performer?
go ask the San Diego P.D. how they like it. theyve logged numerous shooting with the 147gr. 9mm, they are very happy with it.
not sure of the exact loading they use, but their "experts" are backed up by real world shootings of bad guys, not old data from sub-gun loads used in pistols.......
look at the paper numbers for starts, it penetrates deeper and better than the .357sig, it expands just as well as the .357sig, it kicks a lot less than the .357sig (allowing better shot placement in rapid fire...)
now add that to a prooven street record with no fuzzy math for o.s.s. and its a top performer.
anyone know exactly what loading S.D.P.D. uses?
Snowman92D
Member
San Diego (City) PD has a new chief who finally okayed their guys carrying other calibers besides 9mm. Interesting that a substantial number of their officers have opted to get rid of the 9mm caliber that they were saddled with for so long and carry a more powerful caliber.
The previous admin people at SDPD bragged about the high percentage of people who "died' as a result of being shot by their officers using first-generation 147-grain 9mm jhp's...as though that meant something. Trouble is, a perp can do a lot of mischief between the time he's shot by the police and the time he actually succumbs to the wound and goes down. That fact that he was "killed" by their 147-grain 9's isn't the issue, it's the fact that very often perps weren't adequately "stopped" by those loads. The newer, better-engineered 147-grain loads are more effective, thankfully. A lot of officers aren't committed shooters and a soft-recoiling service load is a good idea for them.
The SDPD uses Federal "HST" ammo in all the calibers that they authorize for duty-related use. It out-performed the Ranger-T in their dept ammo tests.
The previous admin people at SDPD bragged about the high percentage of people who "died' as a result of being shot by their officers using first-generation 147-grain 9mm jhp's...as though that meant something. Trouble is, a perp can do a lot of mischief between the time he's shot by the police and the time he actually succumbs to the wound and goes down. That fact that he was "killed" by their 147-grain 9's isn't the issue, it's the fact that very often perps weren't adequately "stopped" by those loads. The newer, better-engineered 147-grain loads are more effective, thankfully. A lot of officers aren't committed shooters and a soft-recoiling service load is a good idea for them.
The SDPD uses Federal "HST" ammo in all the calibers that they authorize for duty-related use. It out-performed the Ranger-T in their dept ammo tests.
funbobby522
Member
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Data from Canada
The Canadians did some research on this for various 9mm rounds shooting into ballistics gel through cloth and bone at both 3M and 50M. Here is a link to that data so you can make up your mind on the 9mm 147 JHP for yourself: http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-1995-01.pdf
BTW - ALL 147 JHP rounds tested expanded reliably with excellent penetration.
Personally, I don't see a downside and I carry Speer GDHP LE 147 rounds.
The Canadians did some research on this for various 9mm rounds shooting into ballistics gel through cloth and bone at both 3M and 50M. Here is a link to that data so you can make up your mind on the 9mm 147 JHP for yourself: http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-1995-01.pdf
BTW - ALL 147 JHP rounds tested expanded reliably with excellent penetration.
Personally, I don't see a downside and I carry Speer GDHP LE 147 rounds.
I am not an expert. My cousin is married to a pathologist. That's my only "inside" or "expert" information.
My understanding is that newer hollowpoints are not as dependent on velocity, as evidenced by some of the gelatin testing.
My cousin's husband is basically of the opinion that you cannot really tell from terminal effect. As one of the earlier posts mentioned, the various service cartridges make similar wounds to the naked eye. My cousin's husband explains it like this. For example, they find a lump of lead/jacketing. Then they weigh it, measure the entrance/exit wounds, and guess it is a .355-357" cartridge, or whatever. Usually, you can't tell whether it is a 9mm, .38. or .357 in that example, assuming you are even that certain. Specific findings are usually dependent on ballistics. Sometimes it's pretty obvious it is a .38, since only lead is recovered (again, using this example).
He carries a 9mm with 124 gr +P or the Winchester 127 gr +P+ loadings. Now, so do I. His idea is that the 147 gr. loadings are good on paper, but they don't offer much insurance in extra velocity. He calims that their lab finds too many JHPs "plugged" with fat, subcutaneous tissue, clothing, or bizzare debris (like glass and steel fragments from a bag of groceries).
Just passing along my reasoning...
EDIT: The groceries thing is actually kind of interesting. A woman was shot with a stray 9mm bullet, but it passed through a bag of groceries first. She didn't die, so this is all hearsay (he is a pathologist, not a surgeon). The bullet hit something in a glass bottle, and began to expand. Apparently the partially expanded bullet continued to travel at relatively high speed, but it began to yaw wide right. It punched through a can and hit the victim's stomach. Apparently, this caused a really large, nasty, but superficial wound. According to this story, the ER surgeon recovered glass, steel, and groceries from the wound; the bullet was plugged with steel from the can. This was in Philadelphia a few years ago, if anyone can find a reference.
My understanding is that newer hollowpoints are not as dependent on velocity, as evidenced by some of the gelatin testing.
My cousin's husband is basically of the opinion that you cannot really tell from terminal effect. As one of the earlier posts mentioned, the various service cartridges make similar wounds to the naked eye. My cousin's husband explains it like this. For example, they find a lump of lead/jacketing. Then they weigh it, measure the entrance/exit wounds, and guess it is a .355-357" cartridge, or whatever. Usually, you can't tell whether it is a 9mm, .38. or .357 in that example, assuming you are even that certain. Specific findings are usually dependent on ballistics. Sometimes it's pretty obvious it is a .38, since only lead is recovered (again, using this example).
He carries a 9mm with 124 gr +P or the Winchester 127 gr +P+ loadings. Now, so do I. His idea is that the 147 gr. loadings are good on paper, but they don't offer much insurance in extra velocity. He calims that their lab finds too many JHPs "plugged" with fat, subcutaneous tissue, clothing, or bizzare debris (like glass and steel fragments from a bag of groceries).
Just passing along my reasoning...
EDIT: The groceries thing is actually kind of interesting. A woman was shot with a stray 9mm bullet, but it passed through a bag of groceries first. She didn't die, so this is all hearsay (he is a pathologist, not a surgeon). The bullet hit something in a glass bottle, and began to expand. Apparently the partially expanded bullet continued to travel at relatively high speed, but it began to yaw wide right. It punched through a can and hit the victim's stomach. Apparently, this caused a really large, nasty, but superficial wound. According to this story, the ER surgeon recovered glass, steel, and groceries from the wound; the bullet was plugged with steel from the can. This was in Philadelphia a few years ago, if anyone can find a reference.
bluetopper
Member
Isn't the 9mm 147 gr cast lead bullet the best for match grade accuracy however?
jonmerritt
Member.
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- 463
Strange, I have had 9 mm rounds drop an enemy with 1 shot, others take several shots. I have experianced this with even larger calibers, and with various weapons. I have seen a 22lr put man down instantly at 100 yrds. There is not a magic caliber or weight. Just be very proficiant with what you use.
BlindJustice
Member
I'll keep reading after plowing through Page 1.
Here's where I stand
S&W 1911 5" Bbl Stainless Steel
Load: Speer 230 gr. GD JHP
I also have been shooting some
Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHP - quicker repeats
S&W 625 5" Bbl. - Hogue checkered Full Profile Rosewood
<Drum roll>
CZ 75B 9x19 aka Luger aka Parabellum
DA or SA Cocked & Locked
This Czech Republic service pistol was tested by
Jeff Cooper for G&A and he pronounced it the best High
Capacity 9MM he had tested to date, but called the Double
Action first shot option un-needed.
The one thing the german WWII service pistols, the
P-08 and P-38 had the same mag. cpacity as the big bore
.45 ACP.
Ok, for the record I am buying up some SPeer GD JHPs 124 gr.
but even though I'm only 25 miles from the factory in
Lewiston it's spendy ammo. So, I'm buying some Win. 147 gr.
JHPs for the backup CZ 75B HD/SD option
I have .357 Mag Revolvers in - aheam different rooms
or drawers.... Visited an ex-Special FOrces and he told me
as I would be an overnight guest, if you find a weapon
it IS loaded.
Roger That looking for a spatual for the scrambled eggs and
running across a Mauser MsC heh
I'll get around to .40 S&W and 10MM AUto in a S&W 610
Randall
Here's where I stand
S&W 1911 5" Bbl Stainless Steel
Load: Speer 230 gr. GD JHP
I also have been shooting some
Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHP - quicker repeats
S&W 625 5" Bbl. - Hogue checkered Full Profile Rosewood
<Drum roll>
CZ 75B 9x19 aka Luger aka Parabellum
DA or SA Cocked & Locked
This Czech Republic service pistol was tested by
Jeff Cooper for G&A and he pronounced it the best High
Capacity 9MM he had tested to date, but called the Double
Action first shot option un-needed.
The one thing the german WWII service pistols, the
P-08 and P-38 had the same mag. cpacity as the big bore
.45 ACP.
Ok, for the record I am buying up some SPeer GD JHPs 124 gr.
but even though I'm only 25 miles from the factory in
Lewiston it's spendy ammo. So, I'm buying some Win. 147 gr.
JHPs for the backup CZ 75B HD/SD option
I have .357 Mag Revolvers in - aheam different rooms
or drawers.... Visited an ex-Special FOrces and he told me
as I would be an overnight guest, if you find a weapon
it IS loaded.
Roger That looking for a spatual for the scrambled eggs and
running across a Mauser MsC heh
I'll get around to .40 S&W and 10MM AUto in a S&W 610
Randall
scurtis_34471
Member
I generally stick with 115 gr if the barrel is less than 4" and 124 gr if it is 4" or longer.
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