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Why do I group like this?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Sweden, Jun 7, 2009.

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  1. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    I love to hear what everyone says about this. I'm not the best rifleman in the world, but I ain't a novice either. I own and shoot multiple rifles in all kinds of calibers, very frequently. I have a particularly disturbing issue with a Remington 722 in 257 Roberts. The last five times I have shot this rifle, I have shot it as follows: POI is always the center of the diamond. The first round strikes high and a little to the right. Second round fired will impact slightly lower and dead center, next round high and little right again, last round impacts dead center again. See picture from today's range session, 100yrds.

    I have probably six targets that have come home looking like this. I'm not 100% the old weaver mounts or Banner scope aren't moving, but more likely suspect myself to be the stimulus? As you can see the rifle is a good shooter. Any comments? Thanks
     

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  2. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    How long do you wait between shots?
     
  3. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    Usually 20-60 seconds, slow aimed shots. I was at the range for 3.5 hours and only shot 26 rounds of High Power. Usually 2-3 shots a string. The group pictured was shooting a cold rifle (it was sitting unused getting snowed on for 30-40 minutes:D) before I shot the above in roughly 2 minutes.
     
  4. BK

    BK Member

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    I've known of Weaver mounts to be the problem, but there's no way I could make that case with your gun. Check them out anyway.
     
  5. hunter25

    hunter25 Member

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    Could be the mounts, scope or most likely the bedding. I would free float he barrel and bed the action.
     
  6. flipajig

    flipajig Member

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    The first thing i would check is my scope and mounts. A stock problem is usually a series of string rounds. bedding a free floting the barrel and action will improve any rifle.
     
  7. jim147

    jim147 Member

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    I had a rifle shoot the same group as yours. I changed the scope and fixed it. It may not be you problem but it was mine.

    jim
     
  8. t george

    t george Member

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    I had the same problem with a rem 700 it grouped just fine! 2 shots in a nice tight group then 2 more in a nice tight group a few inches away.... the back ring was loose on the scope base... this might now be your problem, but i would check it out!
     
  9. BullitHolz

    BullitHolz Member

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    Try this, shoot a round and then before shooting the next, take a screwdriver and tap the scope with the handle. Take the next shot and then do it again. If the shots suddenly start grouping you have an issue with the scope.

    On the low end scopes the recoil of the rifle can cause the erector assy in the scope move around with each shot, tapping the scopes body with the screwdriver often will cause the scopes internals to "snap" back to where they were and then the POA/POI match up again.
     
  10. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    Could be the scope... most likely a bedding issue.

    Check those action screws... tight to the 'correct' torque?

    -does the action still wiggle around in the stock.. most likely hard to spot, static.

    Look at the simple stuff first, action screws, mounts and screws, scope(do a tracking test), a cool barrel is a happy and more accurate barrel...subsequent shots should be taken with the barrel at the same temperature as the second shot... that's right, let it cool.

    is the barrel making contact with the stock, on the 'side' of the barrel, ect...
     
  11. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    Weird. I'd say the first step should be have someone else shoot it, and see what happens.
     
  12. Arbor

    Arbor Member

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    I would look into the scope, I have a Bushnell Banner (not for long) on my AR15 that has shifted POI a couple times pretty badly. It is also prone to parallax errors, I think, because the last several groups I've shot were about 1MOA with the first three, then the fourth shot ruined the group every time :banghead: I finally gave up and ordered a new scope.
     
  13. NavyGuy

    NavyGuy Member

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    I had the same problem too except mine were three-shot groups. All within an inch at 100 yards, the next three shot group whould be within an inch but elsewhere on the paper. Double checked the rings, but it ended up being the scope. Internals jumping maybe?
     
  14. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    A 722 in .257 Roberts. Be still my heart. :D

    Mine puts 'em all into a 3/4" group and I've never bedded or floated it. However, that can be a problem. But, like others here say, I have had a scope take a dump on me. That's what I'd suspect first, or a loose mount bolt or something.
     
  15. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    Thanks for all the comments so far. Is there a consensous? Scope, Ring/base, bedding?

    This scope is probably as old as the rifle, 1956 vintage. However, I've never had a scope go out that was still crazy accurate, only with two distinct POIs.

    If I can find it amongst all my stuff, I've got a NIB VXIII 2-8x36 somewhere that can be used for testing. However, I plan on using this kill-stick for this years hunt and although my speed goat tag is 13 weeks away, I can only be sure I've got time for one more range trip between then. Would you keep it as is, or risk it testing the Leupold?
     
  16. Reid73

    Reid73 Member

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    Interesting problem. As has been suggested, I would ask someone else to shoot it before I started checking the mounts, scope and bedding.

    I thought you shot "very frequently"? :confused:
     
  17. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    Shooting frequently, yes. Next three months, no.

    In addition to probate issues, evicting tentants, moving primary residence, summertime with my boy, the day job w/ travel, oh and a 6 weeks assignment out of the country, a great deal of the next thriteen weeks is accounted for in hour increments. Go ahead and ask what I'm doing on Aug 22, I'll check my planner and get back with ya, yes it's that busy. :D Not a typical summer by any means. :(
     
  18. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    Double tap
     
  19. kmrcstintn

    kmrcstintn Member

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    cold barrel vs hot barrel trajectory dynamics
     
  20. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    simple; and it has been allready stated, if your targets allways get shot, back and forth, back and forth, then you should be proud; you are shooting just fine, and in the same place all the time!!!! I will state it matter of factly.
    Bedding. the easy way to find this out for yourself, is go to Home Despot, and get you some aluminum tape. put a couple-3 layers in the bottom of the stock, under the receiver, and a couple on the sides of the stock, next to the receiver/mag well. make it snug and tight. then, if you have some guts, channel out the stock a bit. or first, just try it with the tape. then go shoot 5 rounds- bet they end all up in about 1 place.
    now then, don't leave it as tape for bedding; it will eventually absorb water, and really screw you up. plus the old remmy 722's and such, are notorious for
    wood warping.
     
  21. DRYHUMOR

    DRYHUMOR Member

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    I'd agree with most everyone else's posts.

    I'd try the new scope though, if it happens again then it's narrowed down to bedding.

    When I try to shoot for proving zero, I take 2 rifles out, set up 2 targets. Shoot one then the other, it gives both rifles a fairly equal time of heating/cooling between shots.
     
  22. docsleepy

    docsleepy Member

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    Something is moving during the recoil and has two stable positions, one right and one left.

    Sure could be the scope or the action.

    Savage evidently has a video out that shows how much an action moves during a shot (high speed photography) and evidently (I haven't seen it) shows that their new accustock system results is way less movement.

    For my .02 worth: when I bedded my Savage 12FV I wasn't sure about the way the action screws tightened up. In the process of shooting newly bedded action, at one point I loosened the bolts and tighted snug and but not really tight.

    I got 4 shots just like yours.

    Then I tightened the bolts really well: and got two shots that were (r/l anyway) right in the middle of the two groups.

    So I can't tell you whether something in the scope or something in the stock is moving, but something is moving. Should be easy to put a different scope on it (even a Walmart scope) and see if it is the scope. If it isn't the scope, then most likelky it is the action.

    By the way I did not try aluminum tape, but I did try duct tape as temporary bedding. Duct tape doesn't work. Aluminum tape might be a lot stiffer and might work as a temporary test there.

    In the bedding, it seems to be very important to bed the recoil lug properly and there are arguments on exactly what is best. But anyway, it doesn't seem to do any harm (unless you accidentally glue the thing in)....

    gordon
     
  23. jim147

    jim147 Member

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    Do you have another rifle?
    You don't have much free time between now and when you go hunting. You owe it to the game to make a clean kill.
    Do the first two shoots always hit like your target? If so you should be good to go if your confident in it. If you are not sure of your rifle I would take another or find some time to work on the one you have.

    jim
     
  24. Arbor

    Arbor Member

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    Without trying a different (better) scope, there is really no way to know. You have to narrow down the variables.
     
  25. Sweden

    Sweden Member

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    Yes I own two 270's that would be legal/suitable for this hunt. Both sub MOA, the Tikka a fair bit lighter than the 722. However, for this hunt, I have very personal reasons for wanting to use my grandpa's rifle. Cognizant of ethical hunting, as configured I'd need to limit my range to ~250 with this rifle for those little goat. I am a very cautious big game hunter, I've never needed to shoot an animal more than once. I've passed countless shots others would/have taken. No I haven’t shot 100's of game, but I've bagged plenty of deer, antelope, elk, bear, and pig.

    I see a rifle that needs attention, but is still shooting near MOA. Two clicks to the left, and all my shots would impact within 4" of aim out past all reasonable hunting ranges. Perfectly suitable for any hunting rig, I preference my rifles a bit more accurate.

    Having said that, I took the leap of faith last night and replaced the scope and rings. I didn't have replacement bases, so we'll see if the old weavers hold. Warne rings and a Leupold VX-III B&C. :cool: If that doesn't correct the issue I'm going to start adjusting action keys.
     
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