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Why do SAO handguns need manual safeties, but striker fired ones dont?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by MemeMagic, Feb 26, 2017.

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  1. pblanc

    pblanc Member

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    Here is the video once again. I suggest you watch it before you once again talk about how it is almost impossible to get clothing into the trigger guard of a Glock (or other striker-fired pistol) to cause a negligent discharge. The video shows that not only is it far from impossible, it is not even that difficult to do if you aren't paying due attention:

     
  2. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    Personal preference...

    I'm not comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol without a safety. I keep trying, I have 5 S&W M&Ps and 3 Glocks. One of the M&Ps has a safety, a Shield. I should have gotten some of the others with safeties.

    Sorry, striker fired guns ain't DA in my mind regardless what the "official" definition says it is.

    I am comfortable carrying an SA/DA semi-auto or a DA revolver without engaging a safety. Go figure.

    I hate the DA trigger on my DA/SA guns but I am getting better shooting my J frame revolvers in DA. I prefer carrying a semi-auto so maybe my improvement in revolver shooting will translate to the semi-auto.

    I'm adapting to keep me happy.

    Should striker fired pistols have safeties? I wish the manufacturers would offer the option. S&W does. I like shooting my Glocks but Glock does not seem interested in offering the option. I won't carry a Glock loaded at this time.

    I hope the government keeps their grubby mitts out of the decision though.
     
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  3. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    It's not physically impossible. The video is proof that you're wrong about that.

    I have a real hard time believing he average 6.5 - 7 lb 1911 (advertise by springfield) trigger is breaking-in to a 3.5 to 4 lb trigger with out significant wear on the factory parts or being deliberately worked on.

    Got any thing to support that claim other than some 1911 fan boys Internet post?
     
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  4. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    And how many people do you know with 1911s that don't work on them? In my limited experience, a 1911 is one of those guns, like a 10/22 or Rem M870, that most people get specifically to tinker with. I think if you buy and use a lot of 1911s and don't do any work on them, you're probably the minority. I've never had a 1911. Have had a 10/22 and an 870. Tinkered with both of em.

    In the video, the officer is clearly not paying attention to what he is doing. So obviously it is the gun's fault. Even then you watch them try to snap the trigger on video and the guy ends up having to put his finger behind it. Like I said from my personal experience. Neither of the two thumb breaks on holsters I own can pull the stock trigger on my Gen III Glock 20 without my finger being within an inch of the trigger holding it. Too floppy.

    I am not a 1911 fanboy so I don't seek out those with 1911s. But I have a friend from college I reconnected with that had a Kimber on his hip. And I have a brother that bought a Springfield MilSpec back when they were like $400 NIB. Both of them had their triggers worked down to about 3 to 3.5 pounds. That seems to be about the minimum arbitrary number people seem to agree is beneficial for defensive applications. And I had one police officer out of a group of five that used to show up during the early mornings on graveyard shift at a truck stop I worked at carried a 1911. It was actually a Colt tuned by Colt with a 3.5 pound trigger. That was actually all he said about it.

    With my current holster, a Bianchi Shadow, yes, it is physically impossible to even get the thumb break into the trigger guard of my Glock 20 once the muzzle is in the holster past the front site. Even if you try. At that point the angle is too extreme for the thumb break to fit in far enough to disengage trigger safety. Tried it. Repeatedly. Things have to go terribly wrong. My suggestion, don't run with scissors, and pay attention to what you're doing when you're holstering. The point is not whether it is possible. Like I said, they are always building a better idiot somewhere. But going to the analogy about planes, it seems to me like every time they pull this wreckage from the ocean or the side of a mountain, they do an investigation, and determine that it was pilot error. Crap happens. Mostly, people screw up. More than the arrow, I find it is the Indian. Glocks, if anything, have made me more safe with firearms. I got my 10mm pretty early, and knew from then on, I wouldn't get away with any lax trigger discipline. There are bound to be those in every group, however, who have to learn these lessons the hard way. I don't think the rest of us should have to consider them when we choose our gear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  5. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    So there we have it.

    Guns are designed to be operated in certain ways. You should handle each in a manner consistent with its design. Most safety issues can be attributed - rightly or wrongly - to human error, with the design at worst being a contributing factor and not the root cause of the issue. At the same time, the difference in performance between platforms, when used as designed, is generally much less significant than differences in individual skill.

    All of which boils down to this: buy something you are physically able to operate, learn to use it correctly, be careful, and chances are you will be fine.

    Carrying a SAO pistol designed to be carried with a manual safety engaged, without using the manual safety, is akin to carrying a traditional single action revolver with the hammer down on a live round. It wasn't designed to be used that way and most people would consider it unnecessarily risky.
     
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  6. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    None of the people I know have had trigger work done to their 1911's nor did I when I had one.

    But having trigger work is a far stray from saying that their 6lb(+) triggers broke-in to being 3.5 to 4lbs.



    ....in your limited experience, and having never owned one, your making a determination that if one doesn't have work done to it, they're in the minority? Talk about conjecture and supposition :confused:

    Keeping this in context of the thread, general tinkering with accessories etc isn't in the same realm as trigger work if that the type of tinking you were referring to.


    But that wouldn't be relevant if it was 'physically impossible' as you claimed, would it?


    Ok;;;; in you're experience with that particular holster. That's a lot different than a blanket 'physically impossible' type statement.


    lol... when you make a blanket statement that 'its physically impossible'. Yes, that is the point. The video proves it IS possible.



    I don't look at this purely as a brand or style of gun issue. That's too broad IMO. I tend to look at the weight and travel as being the main issue to consider.

    The reality is, different systems require different user interface/interaction.
     
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  7. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    My advice to you is to learn to read. You're reading comprehension is lacking. I never, not once, said that 1911 triggers broke or wore down to 3.5 lbs, just that they ended up being that way. Because again, everyone I know with a 1911 has had some trigger work done, even if nothing else.

    And I never, not once made a blanket statement, only ever providing my experience with particular guns and holsters. In fact, I have only ever conceded that it is possible, it just isn't as likely as some make it sound because it requires either one of two things to occur; Mr. Murphy to show up in a big way, or a village to be missing its idiot.

    You love this video so much yet have nothing to say about the fact that when prompted to demonstrate the phenomenon intentionally on camera, they couldn't do it without having their finger on the trigger as well. That video is evidence more against what you're saying and does more to prove what I've been saying. Everything from dude saying its the first time he's seen it happen in 34 years to them ultimately having to pull the trigger with their finger confirms everything I have been saying this whole time; that crap happens and they are always building a better idiot, that doesn't mean we should all base our choices on anomalies.
     
  8. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I could/should say the same back to you.


    And the internet is full of glock trigger work to lighten the pull too. tit for tat

    Citing 911 trigger work with out recognizing the abundance of glock trigger work is an unfair/incomplete comparison.


    That not exactly true.

    What you said was:

    That's a blanket statement.

    Then you added your experience with your holster with this.





    lol.... oh yes... Im so in love with that video that some one else posted a cpl times, multiple people have referenced it several times... But I'm so in love with it. That's cleaver o_O




    When reading your references and comparisons of no thumb safety striker fired guns to 1911's, it may be a good idea to keep in mind your statements of

    and your other statement of
     
  9. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    The video is interesting/important because it (and others like it) show a phenomenon that gets reported in accident write ups/accounts with some frequency, but which some people dismiss as impossible. Well, it's not impossible. Until the fools in NJ get their way, triggers don't have fingerprint sensors on them. They don't know or care WHAT is applying pressure.

    If ANYTHING applies the requisite amount of force over the requisite distance, AND there is no (engaged) safety to interfere, the seat will drop the hammer or striker.

    None of the above should be remotely controversial.
     
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  10. pblanc

    pblanc Member

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    Negligent discharges while reholstering have occurred frequently enough for the term "Glock leg" to be established. No doubt, many of these occurred as a result of having the finger in the trigger guard while reholstering, but other well-documented cases have been due to foreign objects entering the trigger guard. Drawstrings and folds of clothing are most common.

    Massad Ayoob in one of his books (I can't remember which) relates an incident in which an individual with a striker-fired pistol got the drawstring of his jacket in the trigger guard while reholstering. The gun did not go off then, but when he took his jacket off, the drawstring pulled the trigger in the holster and he had a negligent discharge.

    I am not saying that striker-fired weapons without an external safety cannot be safely carried as obviously they can. I agree that in a perfect world, none of these NDs should ever occur. But for those who choose to carry such a weapon, I think it is important to know that these events can and do occur. To say that such events are "nearly impossible" is doing a disservice to those who might choose to carry these weapons.
     
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  11. Ramey

    Ramey Member

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    There are some other options out there but a little harder to find. I recently bought a FNS 9c with a manual safety. Really happy with it so far. Finding one with the manual safety was hard. Most gun stores looked at me weird when I said I actually wanted a safety. I ended up buying one online.
     
  12. Kano383

    Kano383 Member

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  13. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    The ONLY M1911 that I've ever owned that DIDN'T have trigger work done was my current Citadel 3.5cs. In that case, only because it's got the best out of the box trigger pull of any M1911 I've ever owned. I'm not sure that's the norm.

    Everybody I know who carries an M1911 has had trigger work done on it.
     
  14. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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  15. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    My most frequent carry gun is a commander-sized 1911. I have not had any trigger work done on it.
     
  16. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I dont doubt that at all and I generally trust your posts.

    But bfd. It doesn't at all support that if someone doesn't have trigger work done they are in minority.

    For example,
    Every person I know, except 1, that has a truck (2wd and 4wd, domestic or import, regardless of age) has had suspension work done (performance minded, not repair/maintenance).

    Does that support a position that if someone doesn't have suspension work done on their truck, that they are in the minority? Considering there are well a million trucks made every year, and my relatively very small sample, of course not.

    I could also make a very similar claim for all my friends and family. But considering that we are more on the 'enthusiast' side of the spectrum, it doesn't represent fairly the entire picture of truck owners.


    Considering the amount of glock trigger work on the net, it doesn't make sense to include 1911 trigger work and not also include the glock trigger work with out some objective data to do so.



    How much credence should be given to one side of an debated comparison when someone admits to never have owned, and having limited experience with, a product and while also seemingly NOT including an entire well documented segment/practice from the comparison group?

    IMO, little to none.
     
  17. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    How does a holster get get like that?
    When a holster is like that how can you not see that it's a problem?
    Why was the gun out of the holster to begin with and being re holstered when sitting in a car?
    I"m glad the guy is OK but there was quite a bit of negligence in advance of this ND.
     
  18. Kano383

    Kano383 Member

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    Crappy holster for a gun without safety, yes. But the guy did not reholster in the car, if I recall he sat with the gun holstered and the bending and fumbling while sitting was all it took to get it to go Bang...
     
  19. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Those pics are a few yrs old. That's what I remember too.

    It was him shifting and repositioning in the seat; not reholstering or fiddling with the gun itself.
     
  20. pblanc

    pblanc Member

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    Yes, in that particular instance, the pistol was holstered and the individual rotated his torso to fasten his seat belt, and the discharge occurred when he rotated back straight. You can read the details here:

    http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/f...her-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

    This is not the first time a holstered striker-fired pistol has "spontaneously" discharged while holstered. Here is a story about a guy using a nylon holster who shot himself in the butt:

    http://concealednation.org/2016/02/...he-a-heres-why-a-proper-holster-is-essential/

    Yes, both of these holsters were poor choices to be sure, but these incidents provide more evidence that you don't have to have a finger on the trigger for the gun to go bang.
     
  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That may be, but it is most certainly not a reason tot disregard the risks inherent in carrying that kind of gun,
     
  22. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    This is one reason why I do not trust a striker fired pistol without a safety. Intentions might be good, but the loose nut between the ears, including mine, is the wild card.
     
  23. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    It'd be a crappy holster for a claw hammer.
     
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  24. Madcap_Magician

    Madcap_Magician Member

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    It's probably a bit vestigial. Given the presence of a series-80 firing pin safety and the grip safety, I think the manual safety on a 1911 is unnecessary. It does add an additional layer of safety options that is not present on most modern polymer striker-fired pistols, but is it strictly necessary? Not really.
     
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