Why do some scare people away from Brass Frames?

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Plenty of Southern revolvers were made with iron frames, and the south had enough iron ore to make cannons. The main reason for the brass frames is that they could be cast, rather than milled, saving a lot of milling and speeding the whole manufacturing process along.Not saying they weren't being carefull with thier strategic metals, but the idea that all Confederate revolvers were made from the melted church bells of Macon Georgia has been a bit over stated.

Howdy Again

Whether the frame was a hammer forged iron frame or a cast brass frame, it still had to machined to final dimensions. Casting did not achieve the final shape required for a functional revolver frame. Even with my Uberti 44 caliber 'Navy', the brass parts were clearly cast, then machined or ground to final shape. There are parting lines and the coarse imprint left behind from sand casting on the hidden areas of the trigger guard and back strap. The frame itself has had all surfaces machined. One could not get the precision needed to make a working revolver frame with casting alone.

The South could not hope to compete with the industrial might of the North as far as hammer forging of iron frames was concerned. That is why there were so many brass framed revolvers made in the South. In 1864 the Springfield Armory was producing as many as 1000 rifled muskets per day. There were row upon row of hammer forges in operation. Although the Springfield Armory was not producing revolvers, that is the kind of productivity that the South could not hope to match, and that is why they were using brass for revolver frames, and importing as many guns from Europe as they could.
 
The metallurgy is interesting to me. All the talk about improvements in metallurgy mean nothing if the makers are just using some easy casting alloy with additional alloying agents intended only to improve machining or pouring.
We have made some parts of some modern bronze alloys that are difficult enough to machine, with high enough tensile and other properties that I would certainly put it up against any low carbon, and some medium carbon steels with confidence. I can't think of any reason why anyone would make a gun out of them, especially since brass framed revolvers are the economy models. ;)

All that talk lowers expectations throughout the shooting world, and people expect their brass framed revolvers to slowly die.

What was the actual alloy commonly used back in the day? Many bronzes pour well and have good properties. "Bronze" today means something much different than what traditional bronze was throughout history, much less tin is used today typically today. I don't know why they call many of the alloys bronze now.

Again, "Improvements" mean something different to a manufacturer trying to stay in the black. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that the "brass" framed revolvers of the 1800's were much stronger than those made today.
 
The metallurgy is interesting to me. All the talk about improvements in metallurgy mean nothing if the makers are just using some easy casting alloy with additional alloying agents intended only to improve machining or pouring.
We have made some parts of some modern bronze alloys that are difficult enough to machine, with high enough tensile and other properties that I would certainly put it up against any low carbon, and some medium carbon steels with confidence. I can't think of any reason why anyone would make a gun out of them, especially since brass framed revolvers are the economy models.

All that talk lowers expectations throughout the shooting world, and people expect their brass framed revolvers to slowly die.

What was the actual alloy commonly used back in the day? Many bronzes pour well and have good properties. "Bronze" today means something much different than what traditional bronze was throughout history, much less tin is used today typically today. I don't know why they call many of the alloys bronze now.

Again, "Improvements" mean something different to a manufacturer trying to stay in the black. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that the "brass" framed revolvers of the 1800's were much stronger than those made today.

Funny you should ask.

I cannot tell you with certainty what the alloy was that was used in Confederate brass framed pistols, but I can tell you quite a bit about the 'brass' framed Henry and Winchester 1866 rifles.

These guns used a metal commonly referred to as Gunmetal. It was actually a bronze alloy, not brass.

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Historically, bronze was easier for early civilizations to produce because of the natural occurrence of copper and the tin bearing ore cassiterite. It was fairly simple to alloy these metals together. That's why the era between the Stone Age and the Iron Age is usually referred to as the Bronze Age. Zinc, required to make brass, does not exist in nature in a pure state, and more advanced methods of refining ore were required to produce zinc for brass. It took centuries before these methods were learned.

The content of the bronze alloy commonly referred to as Gunmetal was 80-88% copper, 10-15% tin, and 2-5% zinc. Small amounts of lead were sometimes added to make it flow better for casting. The frame of a Winchester Model 1866 analyzed with modern techniques revealed the alloy was 80% copper, 14.5% Tin, 2% zinc, and .5% lead. Why are these guns referred to as 'brass framed' when they are actually a type of bronze? Because gunwriters have called them that for decades and it is too late to change it now.

Bronze cannon from the 15th Century were usually copper with 10-15% tin, no zinc.

Cannons were made of bronze rather than iron for a long time until a satisfactory method was found of casting iron to take the pressure of the exploding powder charge. Bronze was simply easier to cast with. Bronze was used for American cannons as late as 1857 with the bronze Napoleons.

Historically, because of the extra effort needed to smelt zinc, brass was more expensive than bronze. Brass was commonly used for furniture on a gun, trigger guards, butt plates, even sword hilts, but frames were usually made from Gunmetal.

As far as what modern manufacturers are using in their brass framed guns, a couple of years ago I had brass from the sideplate of an Uberti Henry analyzed by a process known as X Ray Fluorescent Analysis. The result was 56% copper, 44% zinc. Not a trace of tin. So much for advanced, improved, modern alloys being used today.
 
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Well that is just weird. It seems like it would still be cheaper for manufacturers to use proper gun metal than brass.
Wonder why they don't. They already machine the same shapes out of steel so ease of working the metal don't make sense.
Any ideas why we get brass framed revolvers as opposed to bronze?
 
Availability of material.

And brass guns are cheaper than steel because it is easier to machine brass. The material is actually more expensive than steel, but the ease of machining brass makes it cheaper in the long run.
 
I do not know how true but, The old timer that owned the foundry and made my bronze cannon tube, said bronze will swell before it blows up. Brass blows up. He would make no cannons over 50 caliber out of brass. He made up to three inch bores of bronze. (mine is only 1.25 inch bore)
 
Plenty of Southern revolvers were made with iron frames, and the south had enough iron ore to make cannons. The main reason for the brass frames is that they could be cast, rather than milled, saving a lot of milling and speeding the whole manufacturing process along.Not saying they weren't being carefull with thier strategic metals, but the idea that all Confederate revolvers were made from the melted church bells of Macon Georgia has been a bit over stated.
I live just a few miles from Chickamauga battle field and every confederate cannon out here is bronze if the south made iron cannons they didnt make very many.
the Confederacy did not issue metal frame revolvers the CSA only issued Brass frames, the metal was used for making gun barrels and other mechanical parts
and the only Confederate soldiers carrying metal frame revolvers either bought them or took them from a dead US soldier.
 
the Confederacy did not issue metal frame revolvers the CSA only issued Brass frames, the metal was used for making gun barrels and other mechanical parts
and the only Confederate soldiers carrying metal frame revolvers either bought them or took them from a dead US soldier.

What the heck do you think brass is? paper mache'
 
I don't believe any of the nonsense about brass frame Colt replicas. To prove it wrong, I'm gonna get a .44 Navy and convert it to .454Casull. I show you guys! ;):p:scrutiny:
 
I have read every post from page one to the end of page four and all I can tell you is if you want a brass frame Colt model in .44 cal dont let anyone rob you of the joy of getting one and shooting it. They are fun to shoot and are usefull for a first bp pistol to learn with. I bought mine cause I like the look and the feel of the gun. When I seen that little Colt in the gun shop I just had to have it and it dosen't have a thing wrong with it. :neener: I keep my loads at 20 grs and it has held it's own just find. The gun was made by Pietta and I will be keeping it. I take it with me fishing and keep it with me when just walking around in the woods. Just keep them clean and your gun will last a long long time. I still have 10 other steel frame bp revolvers to shoot. A Colt Walker, Colt Dragoon, Colt 51 Navy .36 cal, Colt 61 Navy, Two Colt 60s, three Remmie NA .44s, One Remmie .36 Police. The little brass frame Colt is my fun gun and I'm not one bit sorry I bought it. I want a brass frame 58 but I want the the 12" barrel. As far as bp revolvers go you can't beat the Remington 1858, but I still have a lot of fun with them all. :p

Dell
 
Confederates mfg several steel/iron framed revolvers. What Confederates did was make most of the grip straps from brass to conserve steel/iron.

Iron Frame Confederate Revolvers:

Augusta Machine Works Revolver
Columbus Fire Arms Co. Revolver
Dance & Brothers Revolver
Leech and Rigdon Revolver
Rigdon Ansley Revolver
George Todd Revolver
 
Confederates mfg several steel/iron framed revolvers. What Confederates did was make most of the grip straps from brass to conserve steel/iron.

Iron Frame Confederate Revolvers:

Augusta Machine Works Revolver
Columbus Fire Arms Co. Revolver
Dance & Brothers Revolver
Leech and Rigdon Revolver
Rigdon Ansley Revolver
George Todd Revolver
...and NONE were paper mache'
 
Iron ore mines were then and still are non existant in the south.
Yes these manufacturers were in the CS and made steel frame revolvers pre war and started back making steel frames post war however during the war due to the lack of surplus of steel Iron and ore they started forging the frames from brass because the Iron ore quaries and steel foundries who were supplying their "Iron and Steel" and ore from which mostly came from Connecticut stopped supplying the south when war broke out between N and S as well as any other goods that was transported by rail system because the Federal Army stopped all rail lines cold at the mason dixon. Brass supply's were a lot more accessable than steel or iron during that period.
 
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Iron ore mines were then and still are non existent in the south.
Might wanna Google the steel/iron industry in Birmingham. ;)

If Birmingham was what it was in the 1900's back in the 1850's, the war might've taken a different turn.
 
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