Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why does everyone hate on condition-2 carry for 1911's?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by jeeper01, May 22, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jeeper01

    jeeper01 member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    10
    I was a bit dumbfounded to read all the modern internet propaganda about how unsafe condition 2 is (loaded chamber hammer down). This used to be a safe/acceptable carry condition. Did i miss a newsletter from the grave of John Browning?

    Correct me if i'm wrong but a 1911 in condition 2 is no less safe than a beretta 92 or any CZ da/sa in that same position

    Now arguably there is an unnecessary and increased risk involved with using your thumb to cock/decock (logical), but those risks are equally present in cocking and decocking CZ's and Beretta 92's. Only in the cases of Sigs, Rugers and HK's do those fancy-shmancy, liberal decocker levers show up.

    I did plenty of searching and at long last found this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415221&highlight=1910+condition

    which has some good input from some genuinely experienced people, however every other thread on every other forum just bashes on condition 2 as unsafe, uneducated, reckless... etc. whats going on here?


    Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary




    to those who are going to claim JMB specifically intended for C&L carry i'd like to see some documentation of that. It was my understanding that early 1911's did not have manual or grip safeties making conditions 2 & 3 the only 'safer' options. Condition 2 would have been preferred because of 1 handed operation.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
  2. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,892
    Location:
    Phoenix AZ
    My CZ has a decocker.

    If I carry a 1911 it's condition 1.

    Just the act of putting a 1911 in condition 2 can lead to an accidental discharge...if you want to carry in condition 2 more power to you but why? There's a number of safeties in place to prevent an accidental discharge in condition 1.
     
  3. cyclopsshooter

    cyclopsshooter Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,241
    Location:
    The Shadow Knows...
    on pre series 80 colts the firing pin was free floating, held in place by spring pressure only. if the firing pin spring was light, there was a worry that a dropped pistol could discharge the weapon. from what i have heard, you have to drop it from 10 feet or so... who knows... anyway, a heavy duty spring would probably be enough, or buy a 1911 that has a firing pin block...
    i think you be safe with a HD spring... but a lawyer might tell you different-
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
  4. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,704
    Location:
    DFW (formerly Brazos County), Texas
    Well, as a guess, the educated reason would be the risk on lowering the hammer onto the live round, not the geting the hammer back in case of need.

    As that other thread here went into, there are safe ways to control that forward-moving hammer while you have "booger hook on the bang switch" like pinching the wide part of the original 1911 hamer.

    Slipping up on the way to C3 could be bad, but that also implies being at the threshold of Condition Orange going on Red, too.

    Bringing the weapon up and having a thumb slip should just segue into tap-rack-bang drill, in an aideal situation.

    Could also just be that other fora just bash stuff 'cause they don;t know any better, too.
     
  5. John Wayne

    John Wayne Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,133
  6. 22LRFan

    22LRFan Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    118
    Location:
    SE PA
    I don't really know about the safety of condition two, like if force put on the hammer could cause the round to fire. However, it just seems like you're putting yourself in a risky situation by having to pull the hammer back as you draw in a self defense situation. It just seems easier to manipulate the thumb safety as you find your grip in condition one.
     
  7. jeeper01

    jeeper01 member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    10
    that thread leads me to this point:
    i think a cz97 would have done the exact same AD. But those dont get hated on for condition 2. Maybe because they are DA/SA, but that speaks nothing toward safety of manual decocking... just convenience of not having to re-cock
     
  8. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,455
    The problem with Condition 2 isn't lowering the hammer (altho one must be extremely careful) it's thinking that you can cock the hammer under the sudden and severe stress of imminent death or seriously bodily injury.

    Try thumbing that hammer back (especially a Commander style hammer) when you need to fire your first shot within 1 second of a start signal, gun in holster. Do this a couple times and you'll see the problem for Condition 2 carry.
     
  9. David E

    David E Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,455
    The original military requirements were for a pistol with a self-actuating safety that required no action by the shooter to disengage or engage. In hand - off safe, out of hand - on safe. The thumb safety was added later, the M-1910 looked just like a 1911 w/out a thumb safety.

    IE; they expected the gun to be carried in Condition ZERO
     
  10. SouthShoreTJ

    SouthShoreTJ Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    If a 1911 is in condition 2 and the hammer is pulled back almost all the way and then released, the gun will fire. That means if the gun is holstered in condition 2 and the hammer gets caught on something and pulled back it could fire, also if the back of the hammer is struck hard enough it can fire. Putting the gun into condition two (lowering the hammer with a round in the chamber) is unsafe enough I wouldn't do it in my house for a fear of a ND. If you don't want to carry in condition 1 (cocked and locked) then carry in condition 3, hammer down no round in the chamber, and rack the slide after your draw to get to condition 0. Condition 1 is much safer than condition 2. I have never heard of a military or law enforcement organization carrying in condition 2, although I have heard of carrying in condition 3 (I think Israeli security forces carried this way at some point, hence the draw then slide rack called the "Israeli draw"?).
     
  11. dmazur

    dmazur Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Well, the 1911 (in either original or Series-80) has some form of half-cock notch that is supposed to engage the sear if the hammer slips off the full-cock hooks for some reason. Like it didn't reach them during a cocking operation. This mechanism works unless you have the trigger pulled back while you are cocking or snagging the hammer.

    The 1911 firing pin, if it is to specification, is inertial. This means that it does not touch the primer when the hammer is lowered slowly (no inertia.) The hammer has to strike it from a distance to develop enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and hit the primer. When down, the hammer rests against the slide and doesn't transfer any energy to the firing pin when struck. (If you drop the 1911 on its muzzle on concrete, from 10 ft I believe, this can develop enough inertia when the gun stops moving that the firing pin can detonate the primer of a chambered round.)
     
  12. John Wayne

    John Wayne Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,133
    I would also imagine the reason you don't hear this argument mentioned with other guns as much has more to do with the sheer volume of posts related to the 1911, than it does to the design of other guns.
     
  13. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,696
    The Colt Model 1911 ( as such, ) had a Grip Safety and a Thumb Safety from the beginning.

    The Colt Model 1905 .45 ACP Auto had no grip Safety or other Safety, and in essence was a .45 Calibre version of the Model 1902 'Sporting', 'Military' or 1903 'Pocket' .38 ACP Autos...possesing inertial Firing Pins, where, one Carried Hammer 'down', or, Hammer on half-cock, if carrying with a round chambered.


    I believe the Model 1911 ( as such, ) posessed essentially the same inertial Bronze Firing Pin as had it's forbears.


    Later renditions or recent renditions or emulations, may not, or do not.


    I did drop a Model 1902 Sporting from waist height onto concrete, by accident of course, where it hit largely on the Round Hammer, and was in Hammer 'down' mode with a round in the chamber and charged Magazine...and, nothing happened.


    I had experimented prior to that, tapping the 'down' Hammer with a Primed but empty Round in the chamber, wacking it pretty smartly with a short lengh of 2x 4, and also trying a medium size Rawhide Mallet, and I was not able to cause the round/primer to go off.


    Hammer 'down' with one in the Chamber, on the early .38 Autos, or M1905 .45 Autos, while possibly disturbing to some on principle, was about one's only option other than half-cock, or, racking one in on short notice...and, far as I have heard, and asked around years ago, the practice had not occasioned any mis-haps anyone recalled.


    1911 wise...having a crisply 'positive' detent keeping the Thumb Safety where one wants it, is a plus.


    And, 'Condition 1' is how the Pistol was intended to be Carried, far as I know.
     
  14. tkopp

    tkopp Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2009
    Messages:
    511
    Jeeper wrote:
    That's exacerbated by ambidextrous and extended safeties. I carry my Rock Island 1911 in a DeSantis Cozy Partner II IWB rig, which has a flap of leather which extends up just high enough to shield the safety from my body's movement. As a strong-side carry, the safety is tucked against my torso and even if my body rubs against something as I navigate the urban wilderness, there's no right-side safety to get caught and disengaged. The GI-spec safety is also, by its short and rounded nature, very unlikely to be disengaged accidentally. It would take a sharp force pressing from front to back between the pistol and my body. Even my portly girth can't snag and accomplish that, thanks to the holster design.

    If the safety were extended and ambidextrous, however, even a moderate snag on the outside of the weapon in a front to back motion (such as brushing past a stationary object) could release the safety. You still get the grip safety, mind, and someone has to pull that trigger to make the gun go bang. Just bear in mind a GI-spec safety in a proper holster is very difficult to accidentally disengage, where your experience with an 'improved design' might indicate otherwise.
     
  15. farscott

    farscott Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    1,517
    Location:
    Athens, AL, USA
    Not with a properly fit ambi and a decent holster. I chose ambi safeties because I might need to run the gun with only my weak hand. In fact, that happened to me after a shoulder injury; I only shot lefty for ten weeks.

    My daily, all day, IWB carry is a Series '70 Colt with a narrowed Wilson ambi. My backup, carried in a shoulder holster when needed, is a Baer Stinger with Baer's ambi. This ambi is a bit wider than the Wilson ambi. Both are common ambi safeties, and both are well fit to the respective pistols.

    In all of the time I have carried these pistols, neither safety has never been wiped off in the holster. The safety detents are firm and precise, and only a deliberate swipe with a thumb or finger will actuate/deactivate the safety. Each holster is molded so that it resists a wiping action on the off-side lever that would release the safety. I can see that the safety could be wiped if the holster is not properly molded for the safety. That is a holster design issue, not a pistol issue as even a strong-side only safety could be actuated in a holster not properly fit to the pistol.

    As for Condition 2, I will not do it with a 1911. Condition 1 carry eliminates the possibility of the hammer not being caught by the half-cock notch during the decocking motion as the decocking action is never attempted. That decocking motion does not appear to be something I would want to do after a dose of adrenaline was giving me the shakes after an incident where I drew the pistol. It also insures that one is not trying to holster a cocked and unlocked pistol as that could occur if one does not remember to decock the pistol while the adrenaline is still making things shaky. That could be an issue if one did draw the weapon and later holsters the weapon. Catching the trigger with a cover garment during holstering with the thumb safety off could easily force an AD/ND as the grip safety is disengaged during the holstering process.

    Wiping the 1911 safety off as part of the draw and switching it back on before holstering, as mentioned by others, is part of training and good muscle memory.
     
  16. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Headin back to Johnson City
    That's not a big deal. The grip safety has to be disengaged and the trigger pulled in order to discharge the weapon.

    Do a little test. Unload the weapon and cock and unlock. Carry it around the house for several hours then check to see if the trigger has fallen. I'd bet it didn't.
     
  17. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,682
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    If I'm using off-body carry, in which the pistol is likely to get jostled around, then I use Condition 2 carry. If I'm carrying on my body in a good holster, then I carry in Condition 1.

    Oh, and avoid ambi safeties and you'll cut down the 'safety accidentally swiped off' scenario by a significant factor.
     
  18. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,951
    The gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked. That's how I carry it.
     
  19. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,185
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Just curious, why NOT con 1?


    Oh,and
    No
     
  20. EHL

    EHL Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    647
    Location:
    Tulsa OK
    Me either.
     
  21. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,816
    Because there is no legitimate reason to carry a 1911 in condition 2. It was designed to be carry cocked and locked and its safe to carry it that way. If your nervous about the safety getting clicked off when your carrying it, (it won't fire without the grip safety depressed or the trigger depressed anyhow) then carry it in a holster that is molded to prevent the safety from coming off. Problem solved.
     
  22. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,682
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    Actually, there has been considerable evidence presented in this forum in past threads that the 1911 was NOT designed to be carried in Condition 1 but was intended by the Department of the Army to be carried in Condition 3 and often carried by soliders in Condition 2.

    Nevertheless, Condition 1 carry *is* safe and most of us carry exactly that way if it's feasible.

    Unless you have an ambi safety and your cover garment sweeps it off. I have had that happen.

    I no longer carry 1911s with ambi safeties.
     
  23. rellascout

    rellascout member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    5,149
    Location:
    VA
    Because if I need to use the gun I want to be able to fire it instead of throwing it at the BG.
     
  24. John Parker

    John Parker Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    679
    I don't hate on it, I just don't see the reason for it. I carried mine condition 1. I don't see any reason to carry condition 2. When I was new to my 1911, I did put it in condition 2 a few times, (it doesn't look as 'scary' that way) but after having the hammer slip once, thankfully while my pistol was unloaded, I decided that I wouldn't do it anymore.
     
  25. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,037
    Location:
    Idaho
    This thread makes the baby Browning cry.:(
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page