Why does everyone hate on condition-2 carry for 1911's?

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David E,

JTQ, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin. This means that when struck by a hammer falling from full cock, there is enough enertia to overcome the tension of the firing pin spring. Then, the firing pin travels beyond the firing pin hole in the breech, striking the primer.

Once this is over (nano-second), the firing pin spring recovers from the compression and returns the firing pin to its normal position, which is inside the firing pin channel. It does NOT protrude past the breech face as you seem to conclude.

So, with the hammer fully forward, the firing pin is NOT protruding out, and does NOT rest against the primer of a chambered round.

To test this fact, take a primed case and chamber it. Lower the hammer. take a non-marring mallet and beat the snot out of the 1911 hammer. If your gun is within specs (I'd be shocked if it were not) the primer will not detonate.

I don't think you are telling me anything I don't know. If you look at my last post where I said....

The only difference between putting the pistol in Condition 2 and shooting the pistol is the speed at which the hammer is lowered.

When putting the pistol into Condition 2, if for any reason that hammer drops faster than you want it to, that round is going to fire. There is no chance the pistol will fire when you put it in Condition 1 or Condition 3.
 
When putting the pistol into Condition 2, if for any reason that hammer drops faster than you want it to, that round is going to fire.

This only applies if you don't know how to do it. In reality, if the hammer drops faster than you want it to, it still shouldn't fire. If you're skipping step 3, you should learn how the halfcock and/or firing pin safeties work.

1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.

Or maybe I give the 1911 design too much credit. On my FEG PA-63, at least, there's a firing pin safety which would prevent a hammer strike from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is held all the way back.
 
1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. But how is that better or safer than either condition 1 or condition 3? I don't see the advantage, unless I'm open-carrying in an environment where dirt, mud, whatever could get into the internals, but in that case, I'd carry with a flap holster, hammer down in condition 3. I'm personally not seeing a scenario where condition 2 would be better. If someone can explain that scenario to me, then I'd change my mind for that specific instance.
 
WellI had a llama 380 built like a 1911 fall out of my waist onceupon a time.And it was in stage #1 loaded round in chamber hammer in halfcock.Fell on concrete sidewalk.Did not fire.Guess the grip safety saved me.
 
When carried on my person, I find cocking the hammer on the draw to be difficult under time and adrenalin pressure, much more so than simply wiping off the thumb safety. This operation might be easier with the original style hammer and grip safety, but is made much more difficult with stubby hammers and beavertails. For home defense, where hopefully you have some time to react and make ready, it makes more sense.
 
1 or 3 only----whole thing about 2 is that sticky thing about decocking---and yes--I've had an AD with a skelotonized Commander hammer :what:---I was being carefull and it still happened---no one or anything was hurt--other than my pride for being so stupid.

Con 2--DON'T DO IT!!!
 
Edit* why? because manual safeties have a tendency/possibility to switch off if you are being active. Ever checked your safety and found it had switched off? I find that scary

i had this happen once. yes, i was rather concerned.i have no idea what happened, or why. i have been carrying it for over a year since, with no other issues.
 
Sounds like the SFS gadget they put on some FN Hi Power's is just the thing for those who are afraid to carry in C1. I think C&S has them for 1911s.

A few other things.

1. Block hammer
2. Pull trigger
3. RELEASE TRIGGER
4. Lower hammer.

That gets you to the halfcock notch.

In the interest of accuracy, actually with the hammer sitting on the FP energy can still be transfered to the FP. Though an extremely unlikely event, theoretically it is possible to transfer enough energy to move the FP. Wouldn't begin to hazard a guess to what that might have to be. A LOT. Think of croquet or pool balls or those little swinging steel balls, the hammer is just another piece to transfer energy through.

In stressful situations the brain immediately goes to what it has trained for. I trained in cond 1, that is all I know. I don't want my brain running through a pull down menu of options before reacting.

Carry however you're comfortable but train that way and stay that way. KISS
 
John M. Browning was a practial man as well as a genius so when designed the pistol now known as the 1911 he had this in mind. He wanted a pistol that was dependable, packed sufficient power and was ready for instant use. The grip safety was not part of the original design but incorporated after the U.S. Army decided it needed one. The manual of arms for the 1911 is simple, insert a loaded magazine in the magazine well, fully retract the slide and release thus chambering a cartridge. At this point the shooter has only two options, to fire the weapon or engage the thumb safety and holster. Lowering the hammer is not safe and it also requires recocking which is also not a safe procedure especially if done under stress.
If you are uncomfortable with the idea of carring a 1911 or any.other single action semi auto pistol cocked and locked then find something else to carry.
 
Conditions I, II, and III carries refer to 1911-style handguns, i.e. single action only trigger with a cocking hammer, and further, the thumb safety CANNOT be engaged while on condition II.

The reason condition II is dangerous is therefore two-fold. 1: With a round in a chamber, you MUST drop the hammer while pulling the trigger to get to condition II, that act in and by itself is very dangerous and can cause an unintended discharge if not exercised carefully; 2. With the hammer dropped and a round in the chamber, it doesn't take must of a bump or knock on the back of the hammer to cause the gun to discharge. (My friend and I actully tested this. With the gun fastened on a shooting bench and on condition II, he hit the back of the hammer with a empty magazine a few times and it caused the gun to discharge.)

If safety is your concern, condition II is absolutely the wrong way to go.

If the perceived "danger" of a cocked hammer is your concern, then carry it without a round in the chamber and practice drawing and racking the slide simultaneously on your own time.
 
Ok guys, hear me out on this. I'm left handed and if I decide to get a regular old fashion 1911 without the ambi thumb safety, then I believe that I could carry in Condition 2 since it'd be difficult for me to flick off the one sided thumb safety, being left handed. I could carry in Condition 2 (with an old fashion 1911 and not have the trouble with the stubby hammer and bigger beavertail being in the way, and listen to this.

Instead of decocking the hammer if a situation is diffused, I could put it into Con1 until I have the time later to lower the hammer with patience and not influenced with adrenaline shakes (moments right after a diffused situation)

Does that sound plausible?
 
2. With the hammer dropped and a round in the chamber, it doesn't take must of a bump or knock on the back of the hammer to cause the gun to discharge. (My friend and I actully tested this. With the gun fastened on a shooting bench and on condition II, he hit the back of the hammer with a empty magazine a few times and it caused the gun to discharge.)
If the hammer is fully decocked, it rests on the firing pin stop and the firing pin is pushed flush into the slide. There is no way for the hammer to impart any force onto the firing pin - period.

The only way for the gun to have discharged under the conditions stated is if either the firing pin spring was removed/insanely weak (in which case the inertia of the blow caused the discharge - something that would have just as easily occurred in Condition 1) or the firing pin was way out of spec or the gun was on the half-cock notch and not actually fully decocked.

actually with the hammer sitting on the FP energy can still be transfered to the FP. Though an extremely unlikely event, theoretically it is possible to transfer enough energy to move the FP.
Can't. Happen.

I dunno why this doesn't seem to be obvious, but if the hammer is down IT IS NOT RESTING ON THE FIRING PIN. It's resting on the firing pin stop, and the firing pin is pushed into the slide (without coming out the firing pin hole in the chamber, since it's too short). No energy imparted on the hammer will directly cause the firing pin to move. The only way that the firing pin can move is via inertia - a blow to the back of the gun can cause ANY firing pin to move fore/aft in a pistol that does not have a firing pin block, occasionally with enough force to cause a discharge. This can occur regardless of hammer position - cocked or not - since the dynamics in question have everything to do with the inertia of the firing pin and nothing to do with the hammer.

This is why Condition 2 is the safest way to CARRY; the hammer cannot possibly fall and hit the firing pin. (This is also why you should never carry on the safety notch, aka half-cock, because if that notch breaks the hammer CAN fall and cause a discharge and the thumb safety cannot stop it.)

Lowering the hammer is not safe and it also requires recocking which is also not a safe procedure especially if done under stress.
I agree fully with the latter part of your statement, and so did the US Army (who asked that the thumb safety be added specifically to keep troopers from having to decock under stress).

However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

If you're not comfortable doing it - then don't. But you probably shouldn't make blanket statements that manually decocking a pistol is patently unsafe, because it can be done quite safely if one has a mind to learn how.

Getting to Condition 2 is less safe (from an AD perspective) than flicking on a thumb safety. Carrying in Condition 2 is more safe (from an AD perspective) than relying upon the thumb safety.
 
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Another thing to consider....

When the 1911 was introduced, the predominate sidearm for the cavalry was the Colt SAA...a revolver that the soldiers would draw from holster, cock, and fire. If a rider decided not to shoot, he usually would fire in a safe direction (as decocking a SAA from horseback was somewhat risky to horse, rider, and anyone near--as is trying to operate the slide to chamber from Condition 3). The 1910/1911 design presented a problem since, unless you emptied the whole mag, the SAA procedure wouldn't work. Hence, the grip and thumb safety was developed. That way, the cavalry could adapt the 1911 easily to their manual of arms.....

Draw....cock....fire....thumb-safe...holster....decock upon dismounting....


I've carried a 1911, a 9mm Tokarev, and a M43 Firestar in Condition 2 with no ill effects....just takes a little dry fire and range time to get it down.... :cool:
 
War Department said:
Basic Field Manuel
Automatic Pistol
Caliber .45
M1911 And 1911A1

Section IV
Functioning

.12 Method Of Operation
b. If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer being thus positively locked may be carried safely at full cock and its only necessary to press down the safety lock when raising the pistol to the firing position.
....
 
Absolutely. This isn't an argument AGAINST Condition 1 carry. It's an argument defending the utility of Condition 2 carry.

Dunno why some folk seem to feel that carrying in Condition 2 (when appropriate) somehow diminishes their preference for Condition 1.
 
However, I do not believe that manually decocking a pistol, under normal circumstances, is so fraught with peril as to be untenable. I do it all the time.

Agree 100%. Over the years I've probably lowered the hammer of a 1911 on a loaded chamber SAFELY several thousand times..... without a SINGLE AD. My bedside 1927 Argentine is condition 2 and has been for all the years it's been there. Except for range time, that's how it stays.

There's really no trick to it. If you're able to walk and chew gum at the same time, you're coordinated enough to lower the hammer SAFELY on a loaded chamber. Hold the cocked pistol in your right hand. Place your thumb hard against the hammer spur FRONT to BACK, squeeze the trigger and ease the hammer down.

This method works for me and has for many years. I'm completely comfortable with it. My several 1911's in the house are all in condition 2.

OTOH, if you lack the confidence and/or coordination to safely place a 1911 in condition 2, then don't do it! Likewise, if you see no need or reason to have a 1911 in condition 2, then don't even consider it. It's really a matter of personal choice.
 
I'm still waiting to hear about the advantage of condition 2 over 1 or 3! Guys that do 2, what is your reasoning?
 
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