Quantcast

Why does printing matter?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by The Exile, Mar 22, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,196
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    And if they identify you as carrying, they can nullify the threat (to them.) Some criminals might leave and choose other victims, some might not. I'd rather not bet my life on what's going through anyone's mind. I do enough of that already on the freeway.

    Some. Not all.

    A certain type of garment isn't called a "shoot me first" vest for nothing.
     
    Styx likes this.
  2. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    somewhere on Puget Sound
    I had just done a tactical retreat from this thread as it was devolving into getting bogged down in semantics, but I really, really want to see documentation of a concealed handgun carrier wearing a safari/photographer's (whatever you want to call them these days) vest who was shot by a criminal at the beginning of some type of criminal action(s).
     
  3. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,196
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Well, photographers in war zones get shot wearing them....;)
    Seriously, there probably hasn't been. But everybody knows that they are used for CCW. It defeats the purpose of concealed carry.
     
  4. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    That request is utterly ridiculous, for several reasons.

    also ridiculous ,and of course that is not the only risk.

    Another risk is that a person my be mugged for the gun, or be asked to leave private property, or alarm someone, or create a poor impression on someone whose favor may be needed, or start a ripple that starts the process of causing the area to be posted or the process of anti-gun legislation. How lilely? Maybe not very, but why risk it?

    Look: in developing a pharmaceutical preparation or an herbicide, or designing a bridge, or testing an airplane, we do not base our approval on an absence of knowledge or observation, we prove that failure will not occur. You are tying to prove a negative. That cannot be sone. It''s basic logic.

    I've heard that too , and I believe it to be generally true, but I would never bet my safety on it.

    Why????

    What would you do with that?

    What does your not seeing it mean to you?
     
  5. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2019
    Messages:
    594
    Exactly. Comply first - sue second. AFTER you've made it out unscathed- especially with all of today's trigger happy LEO's. You get into a gunfight with a cop, regardless of whether you were in the wrong or the right- the hammer of the law is fixing to smash you flat, in full, overwhelming force.
     
  6. Koroner

    Koroner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2019
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    southwest Utah
    Well that's life,.. nobody gets out alive.

    I would simply tell Mae West that I was just glad to see her.

    I often carry in a fanny pack that allows quick access, makes people think that I'm gay, and frees me of printing concerns.
     
    Old Dog and Coyote3855 like this.
  7. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,190
    Location:
    Statesboro,Georgia
    Most of the time it's easier to spot the criminal types before they can spot my concealed firearm!
     
    Old Dog likes this.
  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    That could be.

    But you do not know that.

    We would have to conduct two scientific experiments, each with a control group.

    On would assess how many "criminal types" are spotted, how many are not, and how many false positives are recorded.

    The other would measure how many concealed weapons are spotted, how many are not, and how many false positives are recorded.

    Would it be worth the effort? I think not.

    But the answers would be a lot more credible than unsupported opinions.
     
    Mr. Mosin likes this.
  9. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,190
    Location:
    Statesboro,Georgia
    The entire notion that criminals are looking for printed concealed firearms is "unsupported opinions"!
     
    Old Dog likes this.
  10. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    We do not know how many criminals may be "looking for printed concealed firearms", but we do have evidence that criminals are very concerned about the risk of encountering armed citizens, and it would certainly stand to reason that they would tend to be cautious about them. It would not make sense to assume otherwise.
     
  11. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,975
    Location:
    Flatlandistan
    Sometimes that 100%, no doubt about it criminal type is an undercover officer. Best not to make assumptions.
     
  12. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    somewhere on Puget Sound
    Why? Because it's almost silly how often some folks repeat these silly themes such as someone who's wearing a vest must be concealing a handgun, therefore, when a bad actor intent on committing a bad act sees that person, he will shoot the vest-wearer first. I responded to this statement:
    by asking for documentation that some vest-wearer, somewhere, even once, has been taken out first by the bad guy simply because he was wearing that vest. Until I hear of a case, I shall ask that people quit using the term, "shoot me first vest."
    "Everybody knows." That was a great Leonard Cohen song, by the way, but no, not everybody knows that "they're used for CCW." That's the purpose of many comments in this very thread, people who understand that for the most part, the people around us on a daily basis are totally oblivious of the fact that there are folks carrying concealed firearms. Look, if you all want to believe there's an active cadre of criminals out there studying in their little criminal groups teaching each other that photographer's vest means the wearer is packing a gun, have at it.

    What would I do with that? I'm asking for examples to back up the common hyperbole that is spread so thick around here sometimes.

    What does my not seeing it mean to you? What do you think? It means I'm continue continue wearing this great Cabela's safari vest when I'm out hiking in the mountains, of course ... It's got a lot of pockets, and that's why I wear it.
     
    Trey Veston likes this.
  13. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    SE WI
    Best comment in this thread so far :)
     
    Speedo66 likes this.
  14. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    SE WI
    If you're worried about what other people think then printing matters.
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    Yes, you did. The question was "why".

    You may ask, but I do not know that anyone would honor your request.

    You have made that clear.

    Do as you like.

    I would not advise against it. It sounds like a good idea to me.

    But do not ever base any course of action on the conclusion that, because you have not heard of something, something does not exist. One cannot prove a negative.

    In a prior life, I used to hear the argument "I have never heard of anyone being charged with...." from executives, who later learned the hard way

    It would have been rewarding to be permitted to say "I told you so", but of course it din't really need to be said.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    Some of the recent videos on Attorney Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense Blog, and some here in ST&T, show how trying to predict the actions of, or reason with, an "Emotionally Disturbed Person", a can be a fruitless and dangerous exercise.

    How about assailants who are in possession of their faculties?

    One might reasonably assume that if they can, they will pass by the armed citizen, printing or carrying openly, and select another victim.

    When might that assumption not be valid?

    One possibility: one accomplice has already initiated the crime, and the other cannot stop it.

    Another: desperation--they are fugitives who must have your car and your money now, to continue their flight.

    Or simply if they perceive that the reward outweighs the risk.

    The stakes make the guessing game a very serious one.
     
    entropy likes this.
  17. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    9,196
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Some people call it prison; if you don't believe they don't 'study up' there, ask some of the Corrections Officers here.
     
    Kleanbore likes this.
  18. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    somewhere on Puget Sound
    See my earlier post (#69) for my response to that particular notion.

    The thoughtful, successful (not behind bars) criminals quite probably do at least a modicum of planning for future criminal activity. Most of that, though, is crime of the white-collar variety, not involving violence. Prisoners don't sit around in their living units or cells in study groups plotting their crimes for their post-incarceration life. Many do, however, plot crimes to "improve" their lot while they're incarcerated.

    Clearly, there's a danger when emotionally disturbed individuals are about, and we absolutely don't want one of them detecting our carry handgun. Nor would we want the team of armed bank robbers noticing us standing in the teller's line with our Glock 17 creating a huge bulge under our shirt.

    I've never stated there was no risk involved with regard to printing, inadvertent or otherwise, nor am I an advocate of open carry. I'm always trying to help people learn more effective methods of concealment to avoid printing. But there's a certain amount of hysteria about this issue, almost some paranoia, and I'm seeing more than a little hyperbole surrounding this issue.
     
    jimbo555 likes this.
  19. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Free State USA
    Its not difficult to conceal a "decent" pistol and avoid obvious printing: loose fit, pattern, stripe, plaid, help break slight bulges.

    Glock 19/23 strong side IWB:
    July18a.JPG
    July18b.JPG

    Glock 21SF AIWB (its there) ;)
    Glock21AIWB.jpg
     
    entropy likes this.
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,788
    Yep.

    Works for me.
     
    CDW4ME likes this.
  21. daniel craig

    daniel craig Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    200
    Location:
    Western NY
    It matters in my state because there are a lot of anti-gun people and the last thing you want is someone giving you a hard time or unnecessarily freaking out. On that note, given the number of people not into guns here, regardless of my opinion about guns, printing or displaying in my opinion is quite rude. It’s ASKING people to get freaked out and low key trying to start something. You know that saying ‘if you don’t start nothing there won’t be nothing’ that’s how I play it.

    Plus the entire point of carrying concealed as that you don't want people to know you have a gun for whatever the reason is, and for me, it’s blending in. When you stand out, whether it’s hair style, dress, mannerisms or gun printing you make yourself a target, or at the very least you draw attention to to yourself more than others would. I go through life with the adage that drawing attention to yourself rarely works in your favor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
    Styx likes this.
  22. wagonburner

    wagonburner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Indeed, the same as criminals are looking for people flashing money. Nobody has ever been robbed after flashing money right?.

    Criminals are not on the lookout for money, jewelry or guns. They want to rob people who don’t have anything of value.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
    Styx, JohnKSa, Tallball and 1 other person like this.
  23. The Exile

    The Exile Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Now that reminds me of a video of a guy trying open carry an AK into a police station.. because it wasn't illegal. I believe those were roughly his words actually after thirty seconds of getting screamed at with a gun pointed at his face at which point he *very reluctantly* laid his gun down and got on his belly.
     
    Styx likes this.
  24. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,227
    Or the guys who Open Carried into Chipotle which cause Chipotle, Starbucks, Panera Bread, Chili's, Target, and a few others to ban it in their stores nationwide. Then the idiot who carried into Wal-Mart which prompted Wal-Mart (and later Kroger) who was already under pressure, to ban ammo sales and to ask customers not open carry in their stores (he was charged with a crime for doing so by the way even though it was legal, he took a plea deal). Then there are a PLETHORA of other stories I've heard over the years where the stubborn open carry types who are open carrying into inappropriate places because "it's legal" have caused problems and prompted a backslash that affects the rest of us nationwide... most of these businesses were formerly neutral on the Gun debate and went by state law until these people decided to disrupt their business, cause problems, and scare customers because "it's legal."
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  25. Styx

    Styx Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,227
    Criminals rob other criminals. Drug dealers rob other drug dealers. People are targeting and shooting cops. There have been stories about ArmsList robberies, and a gun owners being robbed after leaving the shooting range and gun shows. What makes these people have the false sense of security that it will not happen to them, and a gun displayed their hip is like kryptonite to criminals is beyond my comprehension.

    Then there's the story of the conceal carrier who was robbed for is firearm in Wal-Mart. If I remember correctly, the conceal carrier very briefly flashed the grip of his gun, and the felon followed him into the bathroom where he, while unarmed, assaulted the conceal carrier, and ran off with his weapon.

    Then there's the conceal carrier who was tackled by another customer inside Wal-Mart after the other customer saw the 62 year old conceal carrier "grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat." The Wal-Mart shopper who tackled the man was inside the store when he seen this.

    The above robbery of an OC'er happened a few years back just 35 minutes away from me in Newport News, VA...

    I remember the above story when it was first reported. This happened in Richmond, VA which is the same city the gun rally just took place. The man who had a CCW permit decided to open carry, he was targeted because of it, and was killed with his own gun.

    There have been story, after story, after story that I've heard over the years not even including people who have had the police called on them, yet the naysayers still insist that no one notices anything, no criminal would DARE try to rob someone who's OC'ing or printing, and OC'ing will forced others to become firearm friendly....

    There's just more risk, problems, and unnecessary drama that comes with printing and open carry whether the ones who choose to want to accept that reality or not...
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
    HB, daniel craig and wagonburner like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice