Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor Crowd claim the 143 ELD-X as the Bullet that Beats the .270 Winchester?

[sage5907]

Many years ago when the 250/3000 Savage came out some hunters were using them to shoot moose in Alaska and Canada.

 

[Garandimal]

and how many can shoot their rifles out to 500 yards in field conditions to get humain kills on big game animals? 140-6.5cm at 2800fps at 500 yards1934 fps-1162 fpe,, .140-.270 at 2800 fps at 500 yards 1937 fps-1166 fpe. from a 100 zero the drop at 500 yards is 53.7 for the 6.5 and 53.6 for the .270, and the 140 gr .270 can be driven at 3000 fps safely and that puts it at 2099 fps and 1370 fpe at 500 yards with a drop of 45.4 . according to hornadys reloading book, add a pound to you .270 rifle and recoil will be close for both rifles. a foot note, a .260-7mm08-308 can be loaded to give pretty much the same results at 500 yards. use what you can shoot the best with, new or old cartiges.

And that's the 6.5 Creedmoor's paper-punching "magic trick", < 500 yards.

At normal hunting ranges? It's just an alsorun 6.5 Swede.

​

GR

 

[Garandimal]

...It's nice to see the .270 taking the brunt of losing out to the Creedmoor. It was a remarkably poorly thought out cartridge from day one, and deserves to lose.

In fact, "so poorly though out" was the .270 Win. that, along w/ the 25-06, P.O. Ackley could not improve it.






GR

 

[Varminterror]

In fact, "so poorly though out" was the .270 Win. that, along w/ the 25-06, P.O. Ackley could not improve it.

Ackley was not a stupid man. He knew starting with garbage wasn’t a path to success.

 

[TN Outlaw]

The fast twist and efficient shoulder do more for the 6.5CM than extra case capacity ever did for the .270, at least when talking about larger animals. It's really not even close. There is no equivalent for the .264 160gr Weldcore in .277 that will stabilize in a 1:10" twist barrel. The 150gr and 160gr partitions are lacking in both sectional density and weight retention, and the 150gr A-Frame while it retains weight fine has the usual A-Frame problems and can't be driven very fast. The A-Frame is however probably the best elk bullet in .270 and .270 WSM, but rarely used. The 150gr .277 Weldcore is kind of close, but can't match the sectional density, weight, or BC of the .264 version.

It's nice to see the .270 taking the brunt of losing out to the Creedmoor. It was a remarkably poorly thought out cartridge from day one, and deserves to lose.

Yes, and may it continue to be banished to another century of being one of THE most popular hunting cartridges in the U.S and kill another bazillion animals cleanly and effectively. Sure has worked pretty well for decades and decades for such a poorly thought out cartridge. The 1:10 twist is what was needed at conception. The 30-06 had the heavier bullets covered.

People never cease to amaze me. As stated already, this thread is 30-06 vs 308 or all the 260Rem folks getting down right mad every time the word "Creedmoor" is uttered. It's crazy as the illogical hate or however that thread was worded.

With cartridges from .17-.50cal and all kinds of different horsepower levels there are no "better" or "worse" cartridges. There are some that are better at certain jobs than others. Even then, when we start having two closely related chamberings it starts becoming more subjective and loses any real factual comparative properties and becomes preference as it pertains to real world killing effectiveness.

Killing game is a hard way to judge a round. People have killed animals with rocks and spears along with the always popular "22lr" kill we always hear of with regards to larger animals. Lots of whitetail deer and elk have ran after having a 300win mag sent through them and lots have dropped after being shot with a .243Win so people that can judge which is the better killer between very close cartridges such as the 260rem, 6.5CM, 7mm-08, or 270win are alot more talented than I.

I know the .270win has been killing elk and deer for years and it's being proven quite regularly here recently that the 6.5CM can too. Why not leave it at that?

 

[TN Outlaw]

Ackley was not a stupid man. He knew starting with garbage wasn’t a path to success.

So how has the sales to his top cartridge compare to the sales of the .270Win?

With choosing the best most popular AI cartridge it should be easy to out do garbage surely.

....and he was smart. He knew the awesome secret that if you make more room in a case and put more powder in, ......wait for it.......you would get more velocity. Lol

 

[Garandimal]

Ackley was not a stupid man. He knew starting with garbage wasn’t a path to success.

"...But the 270 Winchester Ackley Improved was a different story altogether,
another customer request that resulted in a wildcat inferior to the standard cartridge.

P.O. wrote that the standard 270 was already "over- bore,"
so a 40-degree shoulder with minimum taper couldn't offer much improvement, if any."

P.O. ACKLEY FIREFORM IMPROVED WILDCATS FROM CURRENT FACTORY CARTRIDGES
Cartridge - Performance Gain over Factory - Ackley Comments
.
.
.
270 Win.Ack.Imp. - Little or none with more powder - Not recommended, factory 270 is better
.
.
.
​

GR

 

[CptnAwesome]

Yes, and may it continue to be banished to another century of being one of THE most popular hunting cartridges in the U.S and kill another bazillion animals cleanly and effectively. Sure has worked pretty well for decades and decades for such a poorly thought out cartridge. The 1:10 twist is what was needed at conception. The 30-06 had the heavier bullets covered.

People never cease to amaze me. As stated already, this thread is 30-06 vs 308 or all the 260Rem folks getting down right mad every time the word "Creedmoor" is uttered. It's crazy as the illogical hate or however that thread was worded.

With cartridges from .17-.50cal and all kinds of different horsepower levels there are no "better" or "worse" cartridges. There are some that are better at certain jobs than others. Even then, when we start having two closely related chamberings it starts becoming more subjective and loses any real factual comparative properties and becomes preference as it pertains to real world killing effectiveness.

Killing game is a hard way to judge a round. People have killed animals with rocks and spears along with the always popular "22lr" kill we always hear of with regards to larger animals. Lots of whitetail deer and elk have ran after having a 300win mag sent through them and lots have dropped after being shot with a .243Win so people that can judge which is the better killer between very close cartridges such as the 260rem, 6.5CM, 7mm-08, or 270win are alot more talented than I.

I know the .270win has been killing elk and deer for years and it's being proven quite regularly here recently that the 6.5CM can too. Why not leave it at that?

Same question I'm asking..... Shoot what you want and don't worry about trying to down or prove superiority over other cartridges... Some of these posts are laying out good info, others just bickering about "who's pet cartridge" is better or why cartridges they hate suck so bad.

 

[mavracer]

This thread is based on a false narrative. The "6.5 Creed Crowd" doesn't care about your 270. The only ones I ever see whining about it is the 270 fans that just can't get over themselves.

 

[BigBore44]

If you use the proper bullet with the proper placement, does all this bickering really matter? Know your rifle. Know your personal limits, know how your cartridge is affected by distance and wind, and all else is a moot point.

I don’t have a 6.5, or 270. But am opposed to neither. If someone wants a traditional cartridge, that’s great. I’m that kinda guy. If someone wants the latest and greatest, I’ve got no place to judge. The problem lies with either crowd believing that either genre guarantees success in the field.

 

[Nature Boy]

The “quarter bore”, or .257” is really the true “6.5”

Do that math. It will blow your mind!

6.5 Bob Moore

 

[sage5907]

This thread is based on a false narrative. The "6.5 Creed Crowd" doesn't care about your 270. The only ones I ever see whining about it is the 270 fans that just can't get over themselves.

It is often said that 270 Winchester fans are sincerely faithful to their rifles, more so than any other cartridges. They will put up an aggressive argument against all detractors. I have two 270 rifles and I have taken many deer with them. My best whitetail and best mule deer fell to my favorite 270 rifle. The cartridge has lost favor with me in recent years in favor to the 30-06 which does a quicker job in downing a deer under most conditions. As to the 6.5 CM, the fans fail to mention that it operates at pressures between 57,000 and 62,000 psi and is noted for blowing primers at the higher pressures. The 270 operates at pressures between 52,000 and 54,000 psi. Newly developed powders and newly developed bullets perform well in a 270 Winchester. Berger recommends the twist for a 6.5 to be 1:8 or faster where as a 270 Winchester is still recommend at a rate of 1:10 or faster. Berger shows a 140 grain maximum velocity in the 6.5 CM at 2700 fps. Berger shows a 140 grain maximum velocity with the 270 Winchester at over 3000 fps. That's a big difference in favor of the 270. Even if the 6.5 CM catches on with hunters it will be many years before it exceeds the 270 Winchester in use. As to hunting, if the "song of the sirens" get me in the future and I stray away from 30 caliber bullets for hunting I will look to a 284 cartridge with a 1:9 twist.

 

[Varminterror]

As to the 6.5 CM, the fans fail to mention that it operates at pressures between 57,000 and 62,000 psi and is noted for blowing primers at the higher pressures.

This is just silly - how is the 6.5 creed “noted” for blowing primers because of its high pressure, but the 308win, at the same pressure, is not?

Sometimes these forums remind me of when I moonlighted as a bouncer in college. Guys just let the silliest stuff pour out of them like a 21yr old sorority girl puking her guts out during rush week...

 

[rayatphonix]

I’m reading it for the entertainment value. I’ve learned little about the cartridges, but lots about other members. I’ve got a 270 and Creedmoor. I’ve killed deer with both. The Creedmoor is more fun to shoot.

 

[Gtscotty]

As to the 6.5 CM, the fans fail to mention that it operates at pressures between 57,000 and 62,000 psi and is noted for blowing primers at the higher pressures. The 270 operates at pressures between 52,000 and 54,000 psi. Newly developed powders and newly developed bullets perform well in a 270 Winchester.

SAAMI specs maximum average pressures of 65 ksi for the .270 and 62 ksi for the Creed.



I haven't blown primers in my 6.5s, or my higher pressure .270s though.... I must be doing this reloading thing wrong.

 

[mustanger98]

Let me end this argument right here and now

.308


(Lock the thread)

Bwahahaha! cute.


No.


Clearly, Aught Six. And since we are not backward men, Thirty Aught Six...

.308 - 7.62x51
.30-06 - 7.62x63

I know... depending on what we're talking about doing... let's add .30-30 - 7.62x51R.

Now let's lock the thread... or not.

 

[mustanger98]

I’m reading it for the entertainment value. I’ve learned little about the cartridges, but lots about other members. I’ve got a 270 and Creedmoor. I’ve killed deer with both. The Creedmoor is more fun to shoot.

Yeah. And this is why they make so many different cartridges/loads... so everybody can have so much fun arguing. Getting about time to light up a Brown Bess or something.

 

[Skylerbone]

For visceral knockdown power beyond 60 yards I prefer 416 Barrett. The hydrostatic shock cooks the game for me as I walk to the kill zone. Caught this guy napping at 29 yards but was a bit disappointed with bullet expansion. Might be time to consider something bigger.

 

[TN Outlaw]

There is some good educational content in this thread. I've personally learned two things here.

1- The 6.5CM is well known for blown primers.
(and)
2- The .270Win is a poorly designed garbage cartridge.

I own both, enjoy shooting both, have taken game with both. For any game I would likely run up on I wouldn't care which one of the two I had in my hand. I'd feel equally equipped with either. While folks quibble about which is superior to the other, I'll be using BOTH to successfully harvest game and punching paper.

 

[Demi-human]

Caught this guy napping at 29 yards but was a bit disappointed with bullet expansion. Might be time to consider something bigger.

I disagree.
While the bullet has enough penetration, clearly there was not enough velocity to initiate expansion. Going up to fifty is incorrect. Stay with the Fourty One caliber bullets but use necked down Twenty Millimeter Vulcan brass. That should work. But the stability may be marginal.

Make sure to have a gain twist barrel.

And rocket thrusters. Totally.



Wait! Wait. No. I forgot. It's not a thirty. It won't work. Nevermind. Sorry.

(I have a Two Seventy with no intentions of firing. And all the Creedmoors out there, and I have no intentions of buying. But I've made mistakes before...)

 

[sage5907]

This is just silly - how is the 6.5 creed “noted” for blowing primers because of its high pressure, but the 308win, at the same pressure, is not?

I understand that the 6.5 CM was originally loaded to a max pressure of 62,000 psi but the max was reduced to 57,000 psi by the loading companies because of blown primers. Also, some of the loading companies began using smaller primer pockets and smaller primers to reduce the pressure effect on the primers. Read up on it. I have been loading for years and only blown 2 primers in my loading career and I load near max with my hunting loads. I have friends who shoot precision long range competition with 6 and 6.5 rifles and I have heard them say that a particular cartridge shot the best groups at maximum pressures but they had to back off on the powder charge because it kept blowing primers. They would blow more primers on one day that I have blown in my lifetime.

 

[Varminterror]

I understand that the 6.5 CM was originally loaded to a max pressure of 62,000 psi but the max was reduced to 57,000 psi by the loading companies because of blown primers. Also, some of the loading companies began using a smaller primer pocked and smaller primers to reduce the pressure effect on the primers. Read up on it. I have been loading for years and only blown 2 primers in my loading career and I load near max with my hunting loads. I have friends who shoot precision long range competition with 6 and 6.5 rifles and I have heard them say that a particular cartridge shot the best groups at maximum pressures but they had to back off on the powder charge because it kept blowing primers. They would blow more primers on one day that I have blown in my lifetime.

Well, I’m personally only about 8,000 rounds into 6.5 creedmoor and 3500 into 6 creedmoor, and have never blown a single primer in either, all but 1480 of those in 6 creed being maximum or even above book maximum loads....

But I guess I better “read up on it” so I can start experiencing these pervasive blown primer issues like your buddies...

More silliness by clueless folks who just want to find something to say, even if it doesn’t make any sense....

 

[Demi-human]

I'll say that you are smarter than your friends...
Give a little extra room if you happen to shoot with them on a hot day.

Smaller primers, and their resulting smaller charge of cake, makes for a more consistent ignition and burn. The industry changed to smaller primers upon almost unanimous request by competition shooters.

 

[sage5907]

I'll say that you are smarter than your friends...
Give a little extra room if you happen to shoot with them on a hot day. Smaller primers, and their resulting smaller charge of cake, makes for a more consistent ignition and burn. The industry changed to smaller primers upon almost unanimous request by competition shooters.

That makes sense.

 

[TN Outlaw]

That's the 1st I've heard of the blown primers issue with the CM's. Guess if you push the envelope with any high pressure round those types of things can/will happen.

I just wasn't aware of it being a common problem.