Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by JackaL618, Jul 4, 2020.
Well put and I agree with your sentiments.
In the civilian world, part of this might be due to fact that it’s hard to find a range that allows the use of shotguns unless you’re busting clays or shooting slugs. Good luck finding a range that allows you to pattern and practice with buckshot.
I grew up on the 870 and I just love shotguns in general, so I’m definitely biased. Handguns, rifles, and pccs are all fine for self defense, but I know I can score hits on targets faster with a shotgun that fits than any other firearm.
any handgun or AR or PPC round? Figuring in your chances of surviving the encounter or winning a fight of course?
I prefer AR’s, AK’s and other semi auto centerfire rifles, but I don’t hate shotguns. I actually like shotguns. I’ve done some dove hunting, trap, skeet, some hog hunting and I had a shotgun by the nightstand for decades.
However mag fed semi auto rifles have some advantages.
• Greater capacity.
• Less recoil.
• Greater effective range (not necessarily needed in home defense for a civilian defending themselves, their home or their family).
• The ability to more precisely place your shot. There’s a reason hostage rescue teams don’t use them.
• Faster reloads.
I still feel that the shotgun has a place for home defense.
For several years AR’s have been relatively inexpensive, but for someone on an extreme budget shotguns like the Mossberg Maverick 88 or the Mossberg 500 are an even more inexpensive alternative. AR’s and AK’s have obviously risen in both price and demand due to Covid 19, the upcoming elections and the riots. For those reasons it’d be a good idea to pick up a gauge.
Advantages to both really.
Personally I’d go with the AR, but shotguns are good too.
i suspect many hd ar15 advocates have not fired them indoors without earpro. no unsuppressed gun is fun without earpro but ar15 with muzzle device indoors with 8ft celing is in its own league. sg is much less nasty.
the delta has goten smaller, but a hd shotgun is still much cheaper
if you know how to wingshoot, a sg will be faster than an ar15 on target especially if moving.
i prefer slugs, but close neighbor dictate use of buckshot, 00 and 000. slug and buck tear chunks out like no rifle can until you use .375HH with soft point round nose.
A guy at the range had one of the "tactical shotguns" today. I got to shoot it a few times. I don't know who it was made by but it had all the bells and whistles that can be put on a shotgun including a 20 round drum and red dot sight. Much less recoil that my 500. But I really did not like shooting it. I'm 73 but can still handle most guns with no problems. One shot. That's about as long as I could hold that thing up. All the weight was on the muzzle end. I could not lean into the gun like I usually do. I felt like I was having to push my hip forward and shoulders back to keep it up long enough to get the sights on the target. I'm sure a younger stronger guy would not have any problem. But, I don't think all those bells and whistles would be worth effort. Think I'd rather stick with my 500.
Maybe you should go to those clay target clubs since most do have a pattern plate
And shotguns have definitely NOT fallen out of favor - only with the commando/operators.......More kids are enrolled in SCTP programs (shotgun sports) than any other shooting pursuit.
I haven’t seen a range with a pattern plate locally, but these aren’t dedicated shotgun sports clubs. Just rifle and pistol lanes with an adjacent area for trap and skeet.
That’s a tough question to answer as there are a number of variables that can affect the answer. Smooth or rifled bore? Bead, sights, or optic? Pinned barrel? Etc.
With a bead sighted, smooth bore, improved cylinder Remington 870, I can keep all my shots in an 8” circle out to 50 yards. After that, things fall apart for me.
Someone with a scoped, dedicated slug gun might be able to print clover leafs at 100 yards or a little beyond.
Well in my case, the only reason I would even own a shotgun to begin is for Skeet and Trap... And possibly deer hunting... I perfer to use handguns for defense.
Plenty accurate for HD in my opinion.
All of the above is for defensive purposes - for hunters there's lots of additional gear available (rifled sights, rifled barrels, sabot rounds, etc.) to allow someone with slugs to be deadly accurate out to 100 meters or more.. with slugs...
a hd shotgun is my choice, but an ar15 is not a bad choice i would toss aside. price has come down, reliability up over time for entry-level. and the recoil is mild enough a 12YO little girl can manage it. at hd ranges, 5.56mm does alright in terminal effectiveness, beating most all pistol rounds, though it is no load of buckshot or a slug.
for me, the main reason i do NOT use an ar15 is the high pressure round muzzle blast indoors, secondary is price, third complexity vs pump shotgun
main reason i do choose a shotgun is pointability without a sight vs moving targets, second is speed of movement with it, and third is price.
Shotguns offer broader utility in rural settings. There are obviously cases where someone in a rural setting can use a shotgun without major effort but using a rifle or handgun would require making a berm etc..
For city folk (the majority nowadays) things flip around. Handguns are the easiest to practice with, and shotguns are actually pretty hard to find places where you can use them.
From personal experience as someone who started in an urban setting where pistols are the right choice for a lot of reasons, core shooting skills translate a lot better to rifles than to shotguns.
Seems as though other posters have shared that for their background the starting point was shotguns and that’s their comfort zone.
Make a choice that makes sense to you. Put in the practice to be able to do what you need to if the time comes. Take as many steps as you can to prevent the time ever coming. Do all of that it won’t really matter what you choose, you’ll have as good a chance as you can and that’s what counts.
I will say, when my generally non-shooting wife decided recently that having a HD gun of her own was important right now, the choice was easy...and it wasn’t a shotgun...but that doesn’t mean I hate shotguns. It just means we discussed the pros and cons of the platforms and made an informed decision based on our circumstances. I already owned all the options so it wasn’t cost or image or hate or anything else, just the most rational decision for us.
I think you make an excellent point! It's probably a little beyond the scope of this particular thread but pretty relevant to guns for defense. There's a fairly widely recognized carbine guru over at another forum I used to frequent that explains the first time he got in a gunfight he prevailed but realized it was pure, dumb luck. He vowed that if it happened again he would be better prepared and so devoted all the resources he could to training.
So I think we have to address this one a couple levels. The bad guy could be "better" than we are; better trained and more skillful. We can address this through our own training of course but there will always be someone better with a gun that we are (unless you're in that 0.01% of folks like Michulek and Leatham). And as we get older no matter how much skill we have our ability to execute drops off.
So if we can't simply be better with a gun, we can be better prepared. At least at home, which is where one might keep a shotgun for defense, we are on our own turf. We can (to various degrees depending on our circumstances) harden our domiciles. We can install better outside lighting, lock and reinforce windows with hurricane film, reinforce door jams, alter the landscaping to make our homes harder to assault, get to know our neighbors, form a neighborhood watch, etc.
Inside our homes we can set up a safe room. We can lay out the house with defense-in-depth in mind. We can choose weapons and comms systems to maximize our advantages. Most of us can have body armor (depending on local laws, natch).
So many folks seem to think that security begins and ends with having the right gun. The reality is that's quite a few steps down the road and will never the biggest determiner of who survives and who does not.
Great observation, LoonWulf!
A lot has changed since shotguns ruled the world of HD. As I mentioned in another thread I was born in the late 60's and to the extent that I grew up at all, it was in the 70's and 80's. As a kid I would pour lustfully over The Shooter's Bible and drool over the ARs. AR's were rare and exotic, and when was young pretty much only Colt (and maybe Armalite) sold them. An AR was rare and quite expensive- when I bought my Min-14 a Cold AR cost around $1500! For reference, as a high school kid I made something like $3.35/hour!
Also, the King of CQB back then was the MP5. All the high-speed, low-drag teams used them. The doctrine of the day was that battle rifles ruled the battlefield, subguns ruled the CQB space, cops carried wheelguns and you had an 870 behind the door of the bedroom.
Of course nowadays ARs are at commodity pricing the way flatscreen TVs are. Mini-14s and AKs are expensive.
And the AR platform has been tweaked and refined over the 60 years it's been around! Subguns have mostly fallen out of favor and been replaced by SBRs. Suppressors are more common. I never saw a cop with a rifle or carbine in a squad car back in the day but now they're common.
So yeah, I don't think shotguns are "hated" but the rise of the AR has cut deeply into the domain of the shotgun. The AR is much easier to shoot well, has lower recoil, high rates of fire, deep magazines and tons of options. They're more reliable for a relative nOOb than a pump shotgun IMO (I'm a fairly experienced shooter and I still occasionally short-stroke a pump shottie).
The rise of the choose-your-own-reality media is another issue. If you just look at the crime stats we live in perhaps the safest era in human history. Across the board violent crimes are much lower than in the 70's and 80's. Pockets of higher crime of course exist. But the media left and right has learned to sensational crime to sell ads. If you only watched Fox News you could be forgiven for thinking there are 500 home invasions every day. While the mythical "home invasion CREW" has penetrated the middle class psyche the opinion has arisen that the mostly likely threat will be five armed invaders busting down your door at night. The reality based on actual facts indicate that if you own an AR but don't own a fire extinguisher, you're an idiot. But this siege mentality and fear of the "other" has grown very strong in modern society.
So in a nutshell, the shotgun has lost ground due to competition from newer technology that offers certain advantages over it. An atmosphere of FUD has arisen where elites control the population through fear of the other. And the general decline of places to shoot and of hunting and shooting sports means that less people grew up hunting and running a pump shotgun.
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