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Why doesn't the 10mm get more love from the manufactures

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by JROC, Jun 2, 2011.

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  1. JROC

    JROC Member

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    Let me start by saying that back in January I decided that I wanted to get a new pistol. I really wanted a M&P, but more than a M&P I wanted a 10mm. Seeing as how S&W doesn't make a M&P 10 I decided to go with a Glock 20SF. I was never really a Glock fan before, but after getting my 20 I have learned to straight love this gun. It is very good, and I like it way more than I thought I would.

    I have a hard time admitting it, but my Glock might(might) have taking the place of my Colt CE as my favorite pistol and I've like 1911's for a long time. I have been way more impressed with the 10mm round than I ever was with .45 ACP. I don't want to just sound like I'm trying to put the .45 ACP down as it's a good round that's a very traditional American round, and has plenty of knock down power it's just the 10mm is much better IMO. It shoots faster, straighter, farther, hits harder, and is just a much more modern, and versatile round as you can get 10mm rounds that hit like a .40 cal all the way up to .357 Mag power or more, and anywhere in between. Other semi-auto rounds I've fired are .380, 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 ACP and to me pretty much all of them are outclassed in most ways by the 10mm. I understand that you're not going to pop shots off as quickly when comparing heavy 10mm loads to a 9, but still with light to medium 10mm loads I can get them off pretty quickly, and be accurate enough.

    I don't want to come off as some arrogant fanboy as I know plenty of people on here really like their 9's, .40's, and .45's and you should as they are all fine rounds.(I own a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP, and recently bought a 9mm CZ 75, and am very fond of both guns) I just think it's a shame that the 10mm plays the role of a niche round when I think it should be the standard modern day, big semi-auto round. A lot of people don't even know there is a 10mm round. When you say 9mm, or .40 cal, or .45 people know what you are talking about, but when you say 10mm to a lot of people who aren't very gun savvy don't have a clue what you are talking about.

    I was at a friends house a few weeks ago and I had my 10 with me, and we decide to shoot some. He went and got his old 1911, and Colt King Cobra and we set up some old clay bricks he had laying around. The .45 ACP rounds he had were nothing special just your typical PMC 230gr FMJ rounds. It would bust the brisks up pretty good but it was nothing to write home about. His .357 Mag obviously busted the brisks up quite a bit better, and there was a lot more small pieces of brick with it. With my 10 I had some Swampfox hard cast heavy loads,(this is very hard hitting 10mm ammo) and these were turning half of bricks it hit into straight up dust, and the rest of the brick broken up into many small pieces. When we'd hit a brick with the 10mm we'd have to turn our heads as the wind was blowing towards us and was carrying the dust cloud with it. It was quite impressive when compared to my friends .357, and he was amazed at how hard hitting a round as small as the 10mm can hit, and how easy it was to manage. He swears that his next gun purchase will be a G20.

    I feel that if Glock could build such a good poly gun to handle factory 10mm loads back 20/21 years ago then the other manufacture's should be able to today. If I'm not mistaken Glock is the only one who makes a 10mm polymer gun? I feel that a FNP 45 or M&P 45 would make a great 10mm gun if correctly massaged to work with, and handle 10mm ammo. How about a HK semi-auto 10mm? Haven't they made MP5's in 10mm? I bet a Sig would make a nice 10mm, and so on and so forth.

    Of course I'm sure the biggest reason the 10mm hasn't taken off is because the Military, and Law Enforcement don't show much interest in the round. You would think that when you hear things like the Military wanting to step up to something bigger than a 9mm that they would consider a 10mm. I have average/medium size hands, and my G20SF fits my hands like a glove, and even with a heavy nuclear 10mm loads it's a more manageable gun to fire than my 1911 with +P ammo.

    Sorry for the long read BTW. I guess I had a lot to say, and got a little carried away. Anyway what do y'all think? Discuss.
     
  2. CZ57

    CZ57 member

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    I believe that part of the reason you don't see more 10mm introductions is internet forums. Gun manufacturers check out forums like anybody else. It is not unusual to see someone espousing the virtues of their nuclear 10mm loads. The gun manufacturers know that handloads will go into guns they've made even when warning that handloads will void the warranty. Any of the pistols you mentioned would be great candidates for the 10mm chambering. The SA XD/XDm line would be ideal for 10mm, as would the M&P, FNP, and H&K etc. I don't know about SIG unless it were an all steel pistol. In short, I just think the manufacturers are afraid to chamber 10mm because of the uncertainty of non SAAMI spec loads.;)
     
  3. Rodentman

    Rodentman Member

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    The 10mm is one of my favorite rounds. I've never fired factory loads, just my reloads. I have a Glock 20, 29, DW Razorback and an S&W 610. I don't know why it isn't more popular with shooters and mfrs. I think it's a great round.
     
  4. KAS1981

    KAS1981 Member

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    Firearms, like anything, is all about what sells.

    If nobody liked 9mm or .45 ACP, and loved 10mm, then we'd see a lot more 10mm weapons.
     
  5. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    Keep in mind that the number of platforms that can safely and comfortably and reliably chamber the 10mm are relatively few in number. Most manufacturers would have to invest some amount of money into designing (or redesigning) a pistol to shoot the 10mm cartridge with decent durability.

    Given the lack of supply, the obvious conclusion is that there is just not enough demand to justify the investment on the part of the gun manufacturers.
     
  6. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    Jeff Cooper was a big fan of the 10 mm and wrote a fair bit about it when they were first comming out. The proper full house load it was designed for a good round. The water downed loads were crap for self defense. It just didn't take hold. I seem to recall (fuzzy memory so please correct me if I'm wrong) it taking a while for the 10 mm firearms to be manufactured and have the kinks worked out of them. Maybe this sort of delayed roll out of the pistol by Bren killed the enthuasism.
     
  7. JROC

    JROC Member

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    Good replys guys.

    I was reading on a forum discussing S&W making a 10mm M&P, and people were saying that in order for that to happen the Military or a big Law Enforcement group would have to seriously want to go with a 10mm.

    I feel if S&W, FN, Springfield, HK, CZ, Sig, and other big name semi-auto manufactures would develop 10mm version guns of their volume seller to compete with Glock then the round would start to take off.

    Again it's a great round. I think of the 10mm as the semi-auto version of the .44 Mag.(I know .44 Mag is quite a bit more powerful than 10mm) It's the semi-auto's big boy defense round unless you are wanting to talk Desert Eagle. You don't need a .44 Mag to put someone down, but a lot of people(Like Clint Eastwood) like the thought that they have a very capable, and powerful round in their weapon in case the need for them to have to use it arrives. I think the 10mm is the perfect round to fill that niche in a semi-auto. To be honest I don't know anyone who carries a .44 Mag on them when they go out.(most people I know that carry wheel guns use a .357, but a 10 with factory loads, and a .357 Mag hit with similar force) Still a .44 Mag is a fairly popular gun, and I know people who keep them in their house. IDK maybe Hollywood helped popularized it?
     
  8. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    this.

    glock is one of the only 10mm's that can take a beating from full power loads, and probably still outlast it's owner.


    a properly design (durable) M&P 10mm would significantly increase the round's popularity. alas, s&w is busy with nonsense like "the governor".
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  9. JROC

    JROC Member

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    Sheepdog1968:

    Jeff Cooper actually developed(or helped develop) the 10mm round. The Bren Ten failed largely because the imported magazines had huge delays and would take a long time to get to the states, and from my understanding it was the main reason the gun fails, but there was other things also.

    Swampfox, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and maybe a few others make 10mm ammo to hit as hard as, or harder than the original factory 10mm ammo.

    From my experience 10mm ammo more than any other size round is all about quality. I can shoot cheap ammo out of my .45 or 9mm, and be pretty accurate with them, and not notice much a difference between cheap ammo, and expensive ammo in terms of accuracy. With my 10 if I shoot some cheap reloads, or just cheap ammo in general it is ridiculous how bad I'm off. I can hardly hit the broad side of a barn with it at 25 yards. Honestly it is just amazing, and embarrassing how off I am with lowend 10mm ammo. With expensive, quality 10mm ammo(Hornady, DT, Swampfox) that takes a complete 180 for me. I become every bit as accurate with my Glock as I am with my 1911 or CZ 75. I'm anything but a great marksman, but my G20 with some Hornady 200gr JHP makes me feel like a champ. With that combo I shoot better than any other semi-auto I have ever fired, and my 1911 is a pretty accurate pistol. IDK if it's the Glock or just something with the round, but I've shot quite a few different brands of 10mm ammo, and that's how it's worked for me. To be honest I've let other people shoot my 10 that shoot it better than me. Has any other of you 10mm guys noticed this or is it just me?

    Much of the 10mm ammo out there today is watered down compared to the original Norma, but it should still hit about like a hot .40 S&W round. The Hornady 10mm ammo for example.
     
  10. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    the bren ten was also horribly unreliable, and prone to small parts breaking. why some are eagerly anticipating it's return is a mystery.

    yes, they did ship some without any mags, but that was the least of it's problems.
     
  11. CZ57

    CZ57 member

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    The CZ 97B in particular seems to be a natural platform for 10mm. Folks at CZ Forum have made this quite clear. DWesson has 10mm variants, you'd think that CZ would think about the 10mm in the 97.;)
     
  12. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    It's because 10mm is an autopistol round. Semiautos' main selling points are capacity and portability - i.e. self defense. And 10mm doesn't bring anything to that table other than more recoil and higher cost ammo.

    For hunting, there are better cartridges out there, and most people would rather launch them from a revolver.

    This puts 10mm in the same boat as the Wildey 45 Automag, Desert Eagle, and so forth. A gun that's good for bragging rights, but which most people will download for 99% of their shooting, anyways. I'm guessing 99% of the 45 and 40 ammo that is put downrange is already light target stuff. The 10mm is just more overkill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  13. inutero1212

    inutero1212 Member

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    Maybe because the 10mm overpenetrates by and far the FBI standard and doesn't offer a significant improvment over existing rounds at the cost part replacement, oh wait, that made too much sense....
     
  14. Strahley

    Strahley Member

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    Exactly what GLOOB said. 10mm does nothing extra for self defense that a good 9mm or .45 wouldn't be able to handle
     
  15. Minnesota Wild

    Minnesota Wild Member

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    I agree with both of the big reasons noted above that the 10 was never really very popular had to do with the need to produce a larger platform weapon and because no major buyer picked up the gun, but I think you need to go a little deeper than that as to why it never got that popular.

    The FBI adopted the 10mm as a replacement to the 38 Special, but soon started to reduce the power of the loads to reduce recoil. I think this is something that many of us who are 1) heavy shooters; that 2) are almost all male forget. The military and law enforcement have shooters of all shapes and sizes, including petit women, that often are scared of guns and don't shoot very often. These people are frequently intimidated by the blast of a 9mm, no less a 10mm.

    Now this has to do with why government purchasers don't want 10mm guns, but the same thing applies to civilian purchasers. The 10mm just doesn't have a natural place among the current range of cartridges. For self defense, it's too big for concealed carry and has more recoil than most casual shooters are comfortable with. For those that want a powerful cartridge, the 10mm simply can't hold a candle to any number of revolver cartridges that are better for any given application. This leaves the 10mm where it sits...as a niche cartridge.

    I don't mean this to say that the 10mm is a bad round. To the contrary, I love the round. I just note that there are so many cartidges on the market today that for a cartridge to become popular, it needs to do something significantly better than the existing loadings without disadvantages that overshadow the advantages. You can't say that about the 10mm.
     
  16. Cards81fan

    Cards81fan Member

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    It's only nonsense until you consider how much more profitable it will be over a 10mm pistol.
     
  17. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    touche :)
     
  18. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    It all comes down the the $$$. The buying public doesn't want 10mm autos - or at least, not very many of them do. They make what sells, and what's selling right now are .380 pocket guns, polymer wonder 9's, and 1911's.
     
  19. THplanes

    THplanes Member

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    This just plain wrong. The FBI adopted the 10mm to replace the 9mm. If you will remember it's was the 9mm silver tip they scapegoated for the agencies problems at the Miami shoot-out.

    They never adopted or even tested the full power loads. The requirements for a new round limited to recoil to no more than the 185 gr .45 acp round. An agent supplied his personal delta elite for the test. He was a handloader and supplied the reduced power loads that were tested.

    The problems were with the size and weight of the gun. The recoil was not a factor. The gun they adopted to replace it was smaller and weighed less. It also shot a round that was a ballistic twin of the of the FBI lite load. It would have more recoil than the FBI lite load in the big heavy Smith.
     
  20. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    We have tried to get CZ-UB to make the CZ 97 in a 10mm, no interest yet. Could also be the 10mm is a USA only cartridge. Now, EAA does import the Force pistol from Tanfoglio, called the Witness, in 10mm. I have heard some of the newer slides are breaking, but that is only a few minor stories. I would love to try a Witness Compact 10mm, just because.
     
  21. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    10mm is a hobbyist cartridge.

    It's too expensive and hard to find. It's really only viable if you are a reloader.

    Even though it's mostly a revolver cartridge, the .357 magnum is a better choice for most shooters and I think they realize this.
     
  22. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    there's range ammo for about $17/box, only problem is it's loaded exactly to 40cal velocities (990fps 180gr). it's that serbian partivi stuff.


    i buy HPR and swampfox. full power stuff, and it aint cheap. hoever, there are more options now for 10mm. i usually get blazer aluminum 10mm for around $22/box for the range. it's hotter than partivi. i blast out the expensive full power stuff too. it's fun, but it ain't cheap. :)


    BVAC has promissed to clean up their act and stop selling tumbling bullets, and if that happens, their stuff is only $17/box50rounds for decently hot target loads.


    definitely much more options for 10mm ammo now. there's been quite the spike in glock10mm sales too. i recently needed to find two g29's--couldn't locate a single one in a local shop, or online for 2 months!

    full power 10mm also penetrates more than 9/40/45, and deliver over 750+ ft lbs of energy. will that energy level make a difference in incapacitation as apposed to the 9/40/45 which hover around sub 400ft lbs of energy that makes no difference in stopping power? i bet it would ;)

    so, you guys that have never shot, much less owned a 10mm, and are still claiming that's it's a fad, or "hobby round", really need to know the facts before making uninformed claims--no offense ;)

    a glock 29 is a great backpacking partner in the lower 48, and a great ccw piece. ;)

    (and yes, if you couldn't tell, i do own a 10mm)
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  23. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Simple answer...in its full-power guise, the Big Ten is hard on slides. In the 1911, with its tiny radial lugs, it beats them out pretty quickly, even if they're equalized horizontally.
    The sharp corners at the breechface, adjacent to the side of the slide is also a problem area, prone to recoil stress cracks.

    A few years back, I heard of a conversation between Ed Brown and a customer who was having a few problems. When Ed asked him about ammunition, the owner told him that he was shooting 200-grain SWC and JHP...handloaded to around 970 fps. Not sure what powder was used, or if it was even mentioned.

    Ed's response?

    "Whoa, man! You're gonna break my gun!"

    The 10mm's full-house loading consists of a 200-grain bullet almost 300 fps faster.
    Do the math.
     
  24. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    JROC don't thnk for a minute that the 10mm is better than a 357 mag. Load a 357 with 180 or 200gr hardcast and it will do what your HC loads did with a better BC. And that means better down range energy. 10mm has a place. It would make a perfect trail gun or carry in a rougher setting but it is just another option.
    Problem with 10mm witness has as more to do with the load and matching a recoil spring to it that the gun. Buy factory or load to factory levels and they hold up fine but load or buy hot rounds and you will have problems with out the right springs . All pistol can have that same problem just to a lesser degree. Load a well tuned pistol to standard 9mm loads and then step to nato/+p+ range and it might or might not break over time but it can give reliablity problems and some companies will state that.. CZ would have to redesign there line for the longer harder recoiling round and maybe there just not enough demand for that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  25. Geckgo

    Geckgo Member

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    Put the 10mm in a cop movie and have Tommy Lee Jones and John Travolta in a scene, talking about what a great cartidge it is, the next day shelves around the country will be empty on 10mm ammo.
     
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