earlthegoat2
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Why does't the U.S. Special forces/Navy Seals
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danez71
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Never said you claimed more.
I just provided more info from your own source.
Defensive?
Fastcast
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Ahhh.....We have so called expert Mods right here, that proclaim with all the authority in the world, that Glock is the best "fighting" pistol ever. Everyone would be better served to use a Glock for combat/defensive purposes and there's really no reason to own anything else. END of story, no other pistols needed!
Funny that the best military in the world doesn't see it that way but what would they know, as compared to the tactical jockeys here on THR.
earlthegoat2
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Care to substantiate?
snooperman
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Counter Insurgency...
There was a special on this on the Discovery channel and it showed men from one of our Army special forces groups, "AT A DISTANCE" , where they could not be identified, dressed as Afghans with beards etc, with AK 47 rifles etc, on donkeys . They have intensive training in the language and customs and are quite intelligent ,to meet the stringent requirements. Not all special forces are issued the same weapons and yes some can buy or use what they want to use in this unit . AND, It is not against the "code of military justice " to do so. One of these men , who was one of my former students , shoots with me at our private range , when he comes home with his wfe to visit his mother, is now training some of our finest in counter insurgency in the U.S. He is very bright and speaks Afghan language fluently.
There was a special on this on the Discovery channel and it showed men from one of our Army special forces groups, "AT A DISTANCE" , where they could not be identified, dressed as Afghans with beards etc, with AK 47 rifles etc, on donkeys . They have intensive training in the language and customs and are quite intelligent ,to meet the stringent requirements. Not all special forces are issued the same weapons and yes some can buy or use what they want to use in this unit . AND, It is not against the "code of military justice " to do so. One of these men , who was one of my former students , shoots with me at our private range , when he comes home with his wfe to visit his mother, is now training some of our finest in counter insurgency in the U.S. He is very bright and speaks Afghan language fluently.
snooperman
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jaysouth, you are wrong...
Counter insurgency units and certain special forces units can carry what they want, including AK 47 and other weapons "NOT ISSUED BY THE U.S. military. This is common knowledge.
Counter insurgency units and certain special forces units can carry what they want, including AK 47 and other weapons "NOT ISSUED BY THE U.S. military. This is common knowledge.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Why do you think the AK's aren't issued to the SF and SEALS by the US Military?
As far as handguns go, they use what they have because they are satisfied with them, to the point that the component units don't feel the need to change. If the handguns they are currently using were causing some sort of operational gap, then they would go ahead and write a new requirement, which would open the door to a new pistol competition.
As far as handguns go, they use what they have because they are satisfied with them, to the point that the component units don't feel the need to change. If the handguns they are currently using were causing some sort of operational gap, then they would go ahead and write a new requirement, which would open the door to a new pistol competition.
mljdeckard
Member
Some units are under much more direct supervision than others by their commands. Your issued weapons are accountable. Battlefield pickups are not.
No, I'm not playing with POWs in theater. I KNOW I can't get away with it. My command will back me up for just about anything but violations of G.O. #1.
No, I'm not playing with POWs in theater. I KNOW I can't get away with it. My command will back me up for just about anything but violations of G.O. #1.
Fastcast
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I'm pretty sure that Delta and maybe even the SEALS and SF can carry what they want within reason. Like I really doubt they would allow them to carry Hi-Point or Taurus but I'm sure if it's a pretty common 9mm such as glock, beretta and sig it would be fine especially Delta beings they really only answer to the president.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
No, they can't, due to Federal Acquisition Regulations.
KodiakBeer
member
There are two reasons police forces went to Glocks, both revolving around money.
One was a spate of million dollar lawsuits where suspects being held at gun point got shot after a policeman had already fired his SA/DA and was in single action mode, or was holding a cocked revolver. The normal police story was that the suspect grabbed for the gun, while the suspects lawyer claimed a nervous cop accidentally fired his piece because of the "hair trigger" of a handgun in SA mode. The police generally lost those lawsuits, rightfully or wrongfully. Those lawsuits were the impetus for the long trigger pull of the Glock, and police lawyers and insurance companies approved of the concept.
The second thing was simplicity of training. No safeties, no hammers, no change in trigger pull from 1st to 2nd shot. Cops, mostly, aren't gun people and the simplicity cuts training time and costs.
Elite military forces don't have the same constraints. They like guns, know guns, and want the best. If a prisoner is going to be held at gunpoint, it's probably with a rifle. They've got all the time and money they need to train. Those elite forces who can choose a sidearm, almost universally choose some configuration of the 1911.
None of this applies to us. We're just armed citizens. We don't have lawyers breathing down our necks to choose one platform over the other and we don't have unlimited funds for training. We get to choose what we want, and that's different for each of us - compacts for concealment, big handguns for home defense and toys to shoot at the range.
One was a spate of million dollar lawsuits where suspects being held at gun point got shot after a policeman had already fired his SA/DA and was in single action mode, or was holding a cocked revolver. The normal police story was that the suspect grabbed for the gun, while the suspects lawyer claimed a nervous cop accidentally fired his piece because of the "hair trigger" of a handgun in SA mode. The police generally lost those lawsuits, rightfully or wrongfully. Those lawsuits were the impetus for the long trigger pull of the Glock, and police lawyers and insurance companies approved of the concept.
The second thing was simplicity of training. No safeties, no hammers, no change in trigger pull from 1st to 2nd shot. Cops, mostly, aren't gun people and the simplicity cuts training time and costs.
Elite military forces don't have the same constraints. They like guns, know guns, and want the best. If a prisoner is going to be held at gunpoint, it's probably with a rifle. They've got all the time and money they need to train. Those elite forces who can choose a sidearm, almost universally choose some configuration of the 1911.
None of this applies to us. We're just armed citizens. We don't have lawyers breathing down our necks to choose one platform over the other and we don't have unlimited funds for training. We get to choose what we want, and that's different for each of us - compacts for concealment, big handguns for home defense and toys to shoot at the range.
snooperman
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AK issued...
What makes you think that some of our elite forces are not issued AK 47s? I see them on T.V. with them. I also saw pictures of Navy SEALS with H&K MP 5 submachine guns. Marcinko, can not think of his first name, was a special ops man with the SEALS or special forces, and I have read several of his articles in Soldier of Fortune magazine, and has written several books as well. He talks repeatedly about how great the AK rifle is and how he used it for years, while serving in Viet Nam etc. What I can not understand is how so many people on the web site think that it is against the Code Of Military justice for not using the weapons only issued by our Armed forces. Tell that to men like General George Patton, who by the way, did not carry issued sidearms at all, along with countless other officers and noncoms as well during WW11, Korea, and Viet Nam.
What makes you think that some of our elite forces are not issued AK 47s? I see them on T.V. with them. I also saw pictures of Navy SEALS with H&K MP 5 submachine guns. Marcinko, can not think of his first name, was a special ops man with the SEALS or special forces, and I have read several of his articles in Soldier of Fortune magazine, and has written several books as well. He talks repeatedly about how great the AK rifle is and how he used it for years, while serving in Viet Nam etc. What I can not understand is how so many people on the web site think that it is against the Code Of Military justice for not using the weapons only issued by our Armed forces. Tell that to men like General George Patton, who by the way, did not carry issued sidearms at all, along with countless other officers and noncoms as well during WW11, Korea, and Viet Nam.
10pacesmike
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Glocks, other ammo
I personally worked with SF in Southern Iraq in 06-07 that carried Glock 19s.
As far as non-issued ammo...In Salerno, AFG, 2004-2005, the range was littered with nickel-plated 300WM, 338WM, 338L brass. I've never seen nickel-plated 300/338/338L in SAASMOD.
I personally worked with SF in Southern Iraq in 06-07 that carried Glock 19s.
As far as non-issued ammo...In Salerno, AFG, 2004-2005, the range was littered with nickel-plated 300WM, 338WM, 338L brass. I've never seen nickel-plated 300/338/338L in SAASMOD.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
snooperman, you missed the point. Special ops has mp5s, AKs, and RPGs available for issue. Lake City occasionally makes runs of 7.62x39. A Warfighter with an AK did not necessarily pick the gun p off the ground. It's entirely possible that it was issued by his unit.
The reason that they can't use Personal weapons is that they have not been certified safe, the operators haven't been trained on the system, there is no property accountability and there is no logistical tail. When you pick a gun up off the ground, and your supply system is pilferage from the locals, how do you know you haven't been booby-trapped?
Sorry for the drift.
To answer the OP, some SOCOM units do have glocks in small quantities, generally the mid size and compacts. They can't buy large quantities due to the FAR, and the hoops they would have to jump through. Wanna buy 200 pistols? you're talking about 500K plus, just to get safety certs. You're going to have to compete it. IF you compete a polymer framed, compact pistol, the cost of the testing will be more than the entire procurement. Even the Tier 1 components are supposed to compete procurements, they just don't have to announce that they are competing.
They don't buy <X = fanboy gun of choice>, because X doesn't solve a problem, or address an operational shortcoming. When what you have is doing the job, getting something else is wasting money.
But of course, snooperman read a paperback, so I'm sure he knows more about it than the military folks, and the defense acquisition folks wandering around the topic.
The reason that they can't use Personal weapons is that they have not been certified safe, the operators haven't been trained on the system, there is no property accountability and there is no logistical tail. When you pick a gun up off the ground, and your supply system is pilferage from the locals, how do you know you haven't been booby-trapped?
Sorry for the drift.
To answer the OP, some SOCOM units do have glocks in small quantities, generally the mid size and compacts. They can't buy large quantities due to the FAR, and the hoops they would have to jump through. Wanna buy 200 pistols? you're talking about 500K plus, just to get safety certs. You're going to have to compete it. IF you compete a polymer framed, compact pistol, the cost of the testing will be more than the entire procurement. Even the Tier 1 components are supposed to compete procurements, they just don't have to announce that they are competing.
They don't buy <X = fanboy gun of choice>, because X doesn't solve a problem, or address an operational shortcoming. When what you have is doing the job, getting something else is wasting money.
But of course, snooperman read a paperback, so I'm sure he knows more about it than the military folks, and the defense acquisition folks wandering around the topic.
snooperman
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Owen, I talked to a soldier...
who is in the special forces at Ft. Campbell KY and he was in Iraq and Afghanistan. He stated that those in his unit that wanted to use a different weapon was able to buy thier own and use them. The military did not issue these weapons to them. I called his mother who lives about 3 miles from my farm and she and her husband were career soldiers. She told me today that he uses his own weapons not the military procurement ones. She assured me that some special forces troops have that right given to them by their commanders.
who is in the special forces at Ft. Campbell KY and he was in Iraq and Afghanistan. He stated that those in his unit that wanted to use a different weapon was able to buy thier own and use them. The military did not issue these weapons to them. I called his mother who lives about 3 miles from my farm and she and her husband were career soldiers. She told me today that he uses his own weapons not the military procurement ones. She assured me that some special forces troops have that right given to them by their commanders.
Full Metal Jacket
member
saw special forces in afghanistan the other day on nat geo carrying glocks.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Then the officer has taken personal responsibility for that unauthorized weapon. If anyone is hurt by that weapon, the officer is legally on the hook.
Zach S
Member
snooperman, I talked to a retired member of SF that said that the bullets fired from an M16 tumbled, so when you shoot a terrorist in the leg the bullet could come out of his shoulder...
If I had a buck for every SF operator I've met I'd use the money to paint my car. If they weren't so entertaining I'd just ignore them.
If I had a buck for every SF operator I've met I'd use the money to paint my car. If they weren't so entertaining I'd just ignore them.
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