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Why is .30 Carbine not made in rifles other than the M1?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by TTv2, Oct 13, 2019.

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  1. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    It might be interesting to build a .30 carbine pump gun for those in the anti-assault-gun states.
    Otherwise, I don't see the point of building another .30 cabine long ggun.
     
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  2. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Why when there is 357 and 44
     
  3. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Probably because M1 carbines were very available and very cheap for a long time. Also, because the round isn't that good in comparison to other available calibers. Fast forward to the present, most of the surplus or other cheap 30 carbine ammo has dried up, and its cheaper to buy any number of more effective rounds for current production firearms.
     
  4. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Other than being a 100 yard range plinker or mabey something to protect you chickens in the middle of the night or something I just don’t see that it has any practical purpose.
     
  5. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    The design is reliable but only if the QC is strictly followed, especially in the receiver dimensions. Many of the wartime manufacturers had difficulty making proper receivers and large numbers were rejected by Army inspectors in the early stages of production- and cost wasnt even a consideration.Trying to cast and machine them to a price point doesnt work too well.

    If its a 2nd Gen Universal, nobody wants it because the slides crack, are not GI compatible, and spares were unavailable for 40 years. A guy was selling new ones on Gunbroker for awhile, but now the link is defunct.......

    Unfortunately, the 2nd Gen guns gave the 1st Gen Universals a bad rep retroactively. The early guns are great except for the aluminum trigger housing which can be swapped for a GI unit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  6. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    The complaints about the stopping power of the 30 carbine exist mainly because it is being compared to a full power rifle cartridge, which isn't a fair comparison because the carbine was never intended to compete with full rifle cartridges.

    The purpose of the M1 Carbine was to be a handgun replacement for rear echelon troops and officers that normally might have handguns but not a rifle. Front line soldiers liked the carbine because it was light weight, easier to carry, and had a bigger magazine. But when the had to start using it, they realized it was not comparable to the Garand.

    I had an uncle who was a lieutenant in the US Army in Korea. He was issued a carbine. He did not like it because of its stopping power, and ditched it in favor of the M1 Garand.
     
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  7. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    It is absurd to think that there is no current interest in the .30 carbine round. Just look at all of the posts here about the .30 carbine and M1 carbine (which, with a few exceptions, for all intents and purposes is the same). Perhaps that’s the thing that accounts for it’s popularity, and also what keeps it from being further developed. I, too, looked for an option for an AR in .30 carbine, and while they were manufactured for just a little while by Olympic, they are long since gone. I even went so far as to check into getting a custom AR15 barrel in .30 carbine, and creating custom magazines, but it was cost prohibitive. Then I went out and shot my M1Carbine, the desire for a Franken-AR left me. It would have been heavier, more expensive, and spare magazines would have to be hand built.

    I do wish that the price of new commercial M1 Carbines was a little cheaper. While the Auto Ordnance model has steadily crept down, its quality control isn’t the greatest. The new Inlands are still pretty high, and are just re-branded Auto Ordnance Carbines (both have cast Lamothermic receivers and Green Mountain barrels) with better stocks and quality control. Probably the best (and most authentic) reproduction is by Fulton Armory, but they run $1700+.

    While I like the idea of more varied weapons in .30 carbine, I think it more likely that people would buy M1 Carbines in other calibers rather than other weapons in .30 carbine. I could be wrong though, and I’d be really happy to see some new .30 carbine weapons development.
     
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  8. kBob

    kBob Member

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    First off Olympic Arms made the AR15 in .30 Carbine in the 1980s, but did not offer it for public sale. They made it for the Israeli Police forces who at the time were armed with M1s and liked the cartridge, but the 1942-1945 M1 carbines were getting long in the tooth. They showed a 10 to 12 inch barreled model with a CAR four position stock at a couple of shot shows to gauge interest. It used carbine magazines. In speaking with them they said they got little interest in it. Meanwhile IMI made new M1 Carbine receivers and the local police were happy to have a local made soulution to their problems. For a bit the IMI M1 receivers were available in the US.

    Now on to others....

    Iver & Johnson made a stainless steel carbine and offered it in a plastic stock I believe from Choate that featured a pistol grip, they actually handled quite well and I believe they briefly offered the Stainless with a stainless and plastic "MP-40" type folding stock. Unlike the later Universal guns which screwed around with the original design enough to mess it up, the IJs were pretty close to GI guns. An aquaintence that was an SF trooper in VN and at the time an instructor with a College ROTC unit bought one as a boat gun. His experience with the M1 and M2 in VN did not match the proverbial "Under powered piece of junk" common opinion and he wanted one for his Gulf of Mexico fishing boat. In the late 1970's we actually had a piracy issue in the Gulf and he wanted to be able to repel boarders.

    Hunting with the M1 was popular enough that four or five round magazines were offered for folks in states with hunting magazine restrictions

    Despite all the appearent thousands of Red Chinese un affected by the .30 carbine round, the rifles and cartridges were very popular with American police forces and officers many of whom having used the carbines, and usually with hard ball, reported they worked just fine in the anti personel role. In the mid 1960's the federal government authorized the sale of M1s in surplus through a program much like LEAA to police departments @ $27.50 and departments snapped them up with many guns going to what would now be considered non certified auxillery officers who were allowed to purchase the guns for them selves. My first M1 in 1968 came from this program via a deal between the local police chief and my Dad for work I rendered for the department. Dad paid for his and used it for auxillery call ups.

    The riots of the '60s got cops all fired up about firepower and the little carbines seemed just the thing.

    BTW Marshall and Sanow in their study on stopping power found that the .30 Carbine FMJ from an M1 gave 90 percent one shot stops on the streets.

    Their nemesis Dr Martin Fackler also thought the round an excellent anti people round and lauded the Soft point / Hollow point rounds for home defense AND his bedside gun at home was an M1 loaded with soft points (Hmm the premier wound ballistics guy of the post VN era trusted an M1 carbine to defend hearth and home....odd for an underpowered cartridge doncha think?)

    So both Gel Man and the Ticker Tape Boys had good things to say about the Carbine round.

    I know I will get tales of wounded animals suffering horribly but a lot of freezers in the South East got filled with a lot of deer meat thanks to the little guns and pip squek cartridges,

    as to why no new guns in .30 carbine. Ammo costs is a major issue and that is an issue of economy of scale and no manufacturer wants to gamble on making a few boat loads of .30 carbine in the hopes it might get popular again. Now I have not tried any steel cased .30 carbine other than a few loose rounds of USGI from WWII (it went boom and hit what I was aiming at) and have yet to shoot any of the very nice looking Aquila boxer/brass stuff so who knows. (I bet Augie Dawdie makes PLENTY of .30 carbine for the Latin American Governments)

    Next is just what some have been saying why a .30 carbine when I can get a 9x19 carbine for a pistol role or a .223 for a rifle role (oh BTW many states felt the .223 was ALSO too small for white tail deer and said it was a no-no for large game folks)

    Yes I would think a uber light Kel Tek ish design .30 carbine would be neat....but they already make their bare bones model .223 survival rifle and could not likely sell enough .30 carbine ones to make it worth while. Also not everyone waited until .30 carbines cost more than two decent quality factory built AR 15s do and those folks already HAVE a neat little .30 carbine rifle.

    I believe that over the years Carbine stocks have been available in a number of configurations as after market. Two legged MP 40/AK47 under folders, three legged versions for more stability, side folders and even M4 sliders all with pistol grips for the tactical crowd as well as plastic "fish Tail" pistol gripped fixed stocks ( I seem to recall one even offered the MG 42 rear gripping fin for use in supported prone) and even wood sporting stocks.

    now for something completely off the beam...

    isn't it odd that when any 18 year old could walk into a gun shop and by a then cheap M1 carbine and all the 15 and 30 round magazines he or she could carry and a pile of dang near .22LR price GI surplus FMJ that we did not have those same kids shooting up schools, night clubs, and public events?

    I did carry my own M1 Carbine to school....for American History the week we were doing WWII along with other kids M1 Rifle K98k Type 77 and 03 Springfield, a luger artillery, a P38, and a S&W M&P .38 Special in pilots shoulder holster . ( we had an interesting assortment for ACW week of and Enfields 1853, an Springfield marked 1863, a Spencer Carbine and a Sharps carbine all original and not repros and a Colt 1851 (original and carried by the girls Great x3 grand pa to meet the Northern Invaders she was proud to tell us)Many carried guns at least as far as the parking lot where expecially in season one might see guns in pick up window racks or laying in the floor board. Our High school band director had a little rimfire bolt action in a window rack of his Bronco year round ( I often wondered if it were glued there) Isn't it odd that I can not recall a single inciedent of being shot at school?

    to quote a 1980's NRA campaign "Its the criminals, stupid!"

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

    -kBob
     
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  9. natman

    natman Member

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    Perhaps not from the shooter's standpoint. I can tell you if you're next to one on the firing line, it stands right out from everyday 357s and 44 mags. The first time I heard one, my reaction was "What the [email protected]#*@&@^ was THAT!!". It was at the far end of the line and it still made me jump. I can see why handguns firing ammo designed for carbines haven't caught on.
     
  10. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    It would be interesting if the one current gun whose action visually resembles a Carbine, the Mini-14, were made in .30 Carbine and designed to take original Carbine magazines. It would be cheaper than the replicas and probably better made.

    That might (or might not) get the ball rolling....
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  11. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    Here's one, made from an SMLE action:

    BoltActionM1Carbine.jpg
     
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  12. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Wonder how it compares in sound volume to the 7.62x25 Tokarev round, which also has a reputation for being loud.
     
  13. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    There was also the neat little Marlin 62 Levermatic, plus the Dominican Cristóbal Carbine (which looks like a Beretta design but is based on an Hungarian SMG). If you want to read about interesting experimental rifles in .30 US Carbine, check out Full Circle by Blake Stevens -- the French were quite interested in the cartridge separate from the American rifle.

    Cristóbal Carbine.jpg MarlinLevermatic30USCarbine.jpg
     
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  14. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Usually that's geared toward collectors. Also planned obsolescence somewhat fits, as cars in the 50's and 60's aptly demonstrate.

    It's what my aunt has for a "farm defense" carbine; My uncle has an AR, but she did not like it, or any of the various pistols he has, nor a shotgun. She loves his M1 Carbine, so that's her HD gun.

    These days with the various AR based .30's and the 7.62x39 being common, which it wasn't in the 50's and 60's, coupled with the fact Carbines were cheap and plentiful back then, it's not surprising there aren't any other major rifle designs in .30 Carbine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  15. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    I wish I had a 62 Levermatic !
     
  16. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Dave,

    Thanks for your posts.
    Is that your Marlin 62 per chance?
    The retarding system on the Cristobal makes my head hurt.
    Got any pictures of the MAC French "10/22" .30 carbine and its works and hidden mechanisms?
    Probably half the carbine ammo I shot as a teen was French "7.5mm Carbine" that was Berdan and I believe ( and treated like) corrosive
    It was much cheaper at the little family grocery store than even USGI ammo and at the time I did not reload (Mom drew the line at powder cans in the house and sis refused to sell me her back yard play house) and it shot the same as USGI so. I had high hopes of finding a box, at least an empty one among Dad's stuff when he passed, but no luck.

    thanks again for a great post and pictures.

    -kBob
     
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  17. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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  18. Lucky Derby

    Lucky Derby Member

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    A couple of semi-related observations

    Chiappa is making a M1 Carbine in 9mm that uses Beretta 92 mags. Not to mention the other similar guns in other calibers like the Ruger PCC, and Deerfield, or Marlin Camp Carbine.

    In Colorado .30 Carbine is legal for big game while .223 is not.
     
  19. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    That’s what I was thinking
     
  20. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    It’s only more powerful than a 357 if you compare a 357 revolver to a 30 carbine rifle.
     
  21. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Out of equal length barrel carbines both using 110 grain bullets, the .357 has about 100 FPS on the M1. That’s about the bottom bullet weight for a .357 carbine though, and the the .357 starts to really shine with heavier bullets. I love my M1 Carbine, but if I were pressed to choose between my M1 Carbine and Henry .357 Big Boy for hunting, it would be the Henry all day long.
     
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  22. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    I hear that a lot, too.
    Then a whipped, dusty and rusted garden critter-gitter gets pulled out and their "far south of a grand" is six more than the two fifty I've got for something like that.
    (No offense, that's not you or him.:) That's Michigan.:()

    Then I get my Blackout pistol to the range and realize I've already got one...
    Without the aforementioned logistic shortcomings.
     
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  23. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    my one and only .30 cabine rifle is this non import Winchester with a bring back fighting knife(carried and used in the south pacific) and good condition bayonet and its not going any where. it was not intended to be a main line battle rifle, but for radio-jeep-truck drivers and other soldiers that could be thrust into a combat situation.
     

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  24. StrawHat

    StrawHat Member

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    Thank you Dave,

    If I were to build something on a bolt action, it would be something light in weight and handy. Scaled for the cartridge.

    Kevin
     
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  25. Outlaw75

    Outlaw75 Member

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    Ruger Mini-30's been around since 1987.
     
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