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Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Confederate, Oct 31, 2006.

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  1. Confederate

    Confederate Member

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    I can't understand it. We have all these autoloaders out there with truly horrible double action trigger pulls, but only 1911-styled pistols retain them. I don't trust the Glock's lack of a safety and I don't like having a dreadful first shot (especially when it might be the most important).

    So why don't modern autos employ the cocked and locked feature? Especially when it seems to work very well in 1911s?

    I have a Smith 659 that is very smooth, but it's had some work done on it. It was horrible when I first got it.
     
  2. Black Snowman

    Black Snowman Member

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    One of the reasons I love my CZs. I like cocked and locked. I like having a 2nd strike option, plus a 1911 just isn't quite a good fit for me and a bit on the large/heavy side for carry. I can do Glocks too, but I shoot the CZs better. I know if I'm handling the gun right a lack of a manual safety is a boon, not a hinderance. One less mechanical thing to go wrong. One less action to foul up. Even so, if my life is on the line, I reach for a CZ 1st because I can put more shots on target faster with the CZs than anything else and so far they go bang every time.
     
  3. ShelbyV8

    ShelbyV8 Member

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    There are more people carrying 1911's than anytime since WWII. I own 1911's but I have been carrying S&W's for 20 years. I used to carry a 1911 as a duty weapon but found the safety swept off too often, when getting in and out of a patrol car. Switched to to a S&W 645 which was more accurate than my Gold Cup in my hands.
     
  4. daysleeprx

    daysleeprx Member

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    HK USPs can also be carried C&L.
     
  5. mosttoyswins

    mosttoyswins Member

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    I think it carrying C&L just creeps some people out.
     
  6. Black Snowman

    Black Snowman Member

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    C&L freaked me out for a while. Sat around the house one day with the Delta Elite ready to rock in my holster and have felt silly about worrying ever since. :cool:
     
  7. B yond

    B yond Member

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    It just looks dangerous to the uninformed. It bothered me until I did some research into how the safety functions.
     
  8. sm

    sm member

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    Why?

    1. Lack of Education
    2 Marketing

    First off , folks are not being raised as they once were in regard to being educated in some matters. 1911s, BHPs being cocked and locked was asked, and answered by parents, adults Law Enforcement persons and Military persons.
    We used to keep matcholders that would hold a box of kitchen matches too. Don't see those in homes anymore. Playing with matches was taught early to kids. Just like putting a hand on a stovetop. You didn't play with matches or put your hand on a stovetop. Parents parented, Adults educated.


    Second, marketing kicked in. This Marketing is two parts.
    (A) is new guns were coming out and promoted by Mediums such as TV, Movies, and Magazines. Lethal Weapon sold the Beretta 92, Dirty Harry sold the Model 29 and the .44 Mag. for example. "Gotta haves" is what I call this.

    (B) Marketing again using the Mediums of TV, Movies, and Print, Brainwashed people, among other things, how evil guns were, and how unsafe they were.
    Insurance and Lawyers were part of this Marketing too.

    Folks not raised with guns in the home, kitchen matches in a holder in the kitchen, either. Folks not being educated about guns and playing with matches. Marketing the new safer ways so one did not get sued, pay higher insurance for liability. Marketing propaganda not raising folks to take personal responsiblity, and instead raised to depend on someone else to take care of them.

    Cocked & Locked is just one example of the demise of education and the rise of marketing for ignorance.
     
  9. CountGlockula

    CountGlockula Member

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    Glock do not lack safety. They are the safest guns in the market.
     
  10. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Because someone invented the double action (including the Glock variation) semi-automatic that decreased by half the number of things needed to fire the first round in an autoloader with a round already chambered. The manual safety was swapped for a longer trigger pull on round one.

    Add to that the majority of autoloaders manufactured during the "wonder 9" phase of the 80s did not have the capability of cocked and locked. Another factor was the lawsuit paranoia of those in charge of police agencies as they shifted from revolvers to semi-automatics. They are the primary reason for the introduction of the DAO pistols.
     
  11. Vitamin G

    Vitamin G Member

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    Why is cocked and locked out of vogue?


    Because in general, as a society we've moved away from thinking and logic, and toward feelings
     
  12. GregGry

    GregGry Member

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    How so? I don't agree with that at all.
     
  13. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    :barf: is my reaction to this. It's true, but very, very sad.

    Give me a 1911, keep your DA....unless it's a wheelgun.
     
  14. kengrubb

    kengrubb Member

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    If you won't trust a Glock, then don't trust a DA revolver. Both are Condition 0 guns. Point gun, pull trigger. No active safeties or decockers to fuss with.

    If you believe that a 12 pound trigger will keep you safe, but a 5 pound trigger is unsafe, then you're violating Rule #3
    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIIA4.html
     
  15. JR719

    JR719 Member

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    I'm not a huge fan of the glock "safe action". If one can reach the trigger and pull, it goes off. I like the 1911's, at least there is an external safety so if someone does a gun grab.... hopefully figuring out the safety will slow them down long enough so you can take control. Not all criminals are gun savvy you know. With a glock, they pull and shoot.

    The modern view of "cocked and locked" is more than likely just ignorance. Some think in terms of a revolver, it is cocked and doesn't take much pull to fire. True, it is now single action, however, with a 1911, it is "locked". The safety is on and cannot fire. Just looking at a weapon with the hammer back, well, "looks" unsafe when compaired to the revolvers without a safety.

    I'll take my Kimber any day over my glock unless we're talking ammo capacity. That would be about the only thing, really. All things considered (I know I'm missing a lot) The 1911 has style, has a real safety, "fits" my hand, crisp trigger and the list goes on. The Glock, well, it has a large magazine capacity and easy to clean :) .
     
  16. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    By that same logic, you don't need a manual safety on a tweaked, competition 1911 trigger, either. If Glocks and revolvers are safe for Condition 0, so is a 1911.

    Somewhere between light competition triggers on a semi-auto and the DA pull of a revolver there is a point, and on one side of the point it is a really good idea to have a manual safety, and on the other it is OK to not have one. I don't presume to know exactly where that point lies (in truth, it will vary a lot by the type of work done by the gun, i.e., is it a race gun or a duty gun?), but it certainly does exist.

    And no, I do not think Glocks are unsafe. They are, however, unforgiving of unsafe practices. That is not the gun's fault.

    Mike
     
  17. JR719

    JR719 Member

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    Coronach,

    Oddly enough, it was not my point to say Glocks are unsafe. I have carried one on duty for years. I just like the added benifit of an external safety. I was involved in a gun grab, fortunately the turd did not get the gun out of the holster. After that, it sorta made me think about various things, one being an external safety on the weapon.
    For the people doing range shooting and CCW, I would guess 99% of the time (or more) they will never be involved in a shoot, don't shoot or gun grab (real life). Under stress, a 2 or 12 pound trigger will more than likely not matter.
    I was geared more towards a "gun grab" for the lack of an external safety on the Glocks (although it doesn't really read that way). If the bad guy gets your gun and does not know the proper function, it will slow them down and get you time. With a Glock, that is not so.
     
  18. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    I just prefer a pull and point type gun. I understand a LEOs desire for a safety in the case of a gun grab but I plan to conceal my gun. I dont plan on letting them grab it since they should not see it. I know it is possible but I think it more likely a cop open carrying will suffer a gun grab then someone concealing their gun PROPERLY.
     
  19. kengrubb

    kengrubb Member

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    Agreed and agreed. You do NOT need a manual safety on a 1911.

    Now, if you went out and had a 1911 built without a manual safety, you might well be inviting legal woes--but that's a whole nutter kettle fish and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What is unsafe and what is legally a bad idea are two entirely different standards.

    Also, not needing a manual safety and not using a manual safety are two entirely different things. If the gun has a safety, then you should dang well use it, practice swiping it on when holstering and off when presenting. Otherwise, if you don't practice swiping it off, some danged little gremlin will switch it on while you're sleeping, and when you need it most, your fingerprints will be embedded in the trigger but the gun won't go boom. That's a bad thing.

    To restate, no, I do not see where 1911s need a manual safety. Let's see how far outta context this one can be taken.

    Good idea on the basis of what?

    Legal liability? If the gun has been built, shipped, tested used under the most extreme conditions (read about the Miami PD's testing of the Glock), and is in use by PDs everywhere, who can realistically and convincingly make the case that Glocks are a legal timebomb?

    I see this as perception, not reality. There's not a huge dataset of NDs with lots of detail (at least not that I know of) in which we could find patterns.

    At first glance, it could appear that Frontsight has had an inordinate number of NDs in the last 7.5, almost 8, years.
    http://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5

    I daresay that if the number of students trained were compared to FAS, LFI, Gunsite, et al. in the same period of time one would have to conclude that these were statistical anomalies.

    In any event, 5 incidents, 2 with SIGs, 2 with 1911s, 1 with a Glock. The culprits are Rule 2, Rule 3 and unsafe equipment combos.

    In that we very much agree. It's never the gun's fault no matter what it's pedigree.
     
  20. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Perhpas it is a function of where you live, Confederate?

    Around here many people carry the 1911. I have no numbers. Perhaps we can get funding for a survey?:D

    Modern autoloaders do not a Condition One carry as the militree contracts specify that it not be present. I find it odd though. The very same milicrats and policicrats that shake in their panties about 1911s welcome Glocks.

    The cocked hammer is seen as a potential liability on the 1911, but since the Glock is out of sight, it is out of mind.:D
     
  21. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    I'm not sure it was ever in "vogue" to be honest. That's really a question and not a fact. I say that because the LEO community went from revolvers to DA type autos. Armed forces, as I understand it, carried the 1911 with the hammer down and empty chamber. That was 20 years ago and they went to a DA type.

    I'd guess there are more C&L carry now than ever. More 1911's are sold than ever, I've read, and the shooting sports have more members that would use a 1911 style, combined than ever I believe.

    Could be wrong though. ;)
     
  22. usp9

    usp9 Member

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    C & L is not my personal preference because it involves having to do TWO operations to fire a weapon instead of ONE. When I draw, all I want to have to do is pull the trigger. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Shooting.
     
  23. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    With one exception, the Japanese Type 94. External sears are always a bad idea.
     
  24. Cocked & Locked

    Cocked & Locked Member

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    :neener:

    It's not "out of vogue" for me obviously. That's been my gun forum name for many moons...not as many moons on THR as elsewhere.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. jeepmor

    jeepmor Member

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    C&L

    My witness can do it. If you run C&L, you'll simply need to train to draw, put tension on trigger once aimed and then release safety. BOOM!

    The ex-swat CCW instructor said this is how they trained for swat entries when 1911's were in hand. I tried it with my Witness, works fine. You squeeze trigger and release the safety, it goes boom. Kind of a weird method, I'll just carry it unlocked with the heavy DA to make it one single operation. Longer pull, but simpler with point and click.

    jeepmor
     
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