Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?

[Glockfan.45]

I have Glocks and a 1911. If I were able to carry I would feel safer with one in the pipe of my 1911 than any Glock I own. Simple reason for this is the grip saftey and manual safety. Now I am not saying the Glock is unsafe, just the 1911 has more fail safes.

 

[makarovnik]

I'm pretty sure it's a combination of things:

Invention of the double action pistol
Marketing (supposedly the newer the idea, the better it is, which is often B.S.)
Uneducated pistol packers

There are plenty of double action and DAO pistols that are safe to carry with one in the chamber. Many have a decent "first shot" trigger pull. IMO some of these are quicker to get into action because you don't have to disengage a manual safety before firing. I feel safe carrying many of the striker fired pistols around today with one in the chamber.

I really like the idea behind the Sig DAK trigger. It's almost as light as the Glock but it offers re-strike capability without cycling the slide (in case of a light firing pin strike or whatever).

I also like carrying the 1911 cocked and locked. It's an old tried and true straight forward design. You can easily see what's going on with the very visible external hammer and safety. I for one also like the grip safety. Either way, as long as I feel safe with one in the chamber, any of these guns work for me.

 

[Chuck R.]

I hope C&L isn’t out of vogue, I just went back to it a little while ago. I used to carry a 1911 C&L, till the day I had the dreaded safety swiped off while holstered. It was a cheap holster without a slide guard.

I then went to the DA/SA auto and trained religiously to overcome the DA to SA transition, a boatload of double tap drills. I even got pretty good at it, still not as fast/smooth as a 1911. My SIG 220ST is a pretty good pistol accurate and reliable. Bottom line up front, I’ve timed my self on getting that first shot off with both pistols and I’m slower with the SIG. I have to concentrate to keep that 1st shot in the group. My 1911s all have superior triggers and it’s the same for every shot.

What changed me back was my Baer Stinger, and a Sparks holster. There’s just no way that safety is getting swiped off, the holster is molded to it. The trigger is a consistent crisp 4LBs, not too heavy, not too light. I too like the grip safety on a 1911, but then again I’ve never had a problem with one even when using a high thumb grip.

So when I CCW, it’s the 1911. The SIG stays in a pistol safe in my nightstand. I figure if something does go bump in the night and I’m half-asleep I’ll want that long DA pull then.

Chuck

 

[FTF]

Why it went out of style? Who knows... probably a lot of factors.

My personal opinion is that the SA 1911 style pistol design is almost 100 years old. With all the new wiz-bang plastic guns the trend seems to be more toward DAO or DA for the first pull... most police and the military use Beretta 92's which follow that functioning. I guess maybe more people are 'used' to a DA pistol now? That's what you see on TV perhaps.

One thing that has confused me was when I was in the military... the M16A2 is basically a SA... we carried ours cocked and locked and never thought anything about it. One in the chamber, safety on and if you flip that lever, it's SA. Same thing, at least in my eyes, as a 1911 pistol. Maybe people just think it's safer because it's a 'rifle' and you can't stick it in your pocket and somehow shoot the family jewels. Flawed logic perhaps? Who knows... I know what MY preference is and being in vogue has nothing to do with it.. I just shoot it betta

 

[BullfrogKen]

makarovnik said: I really like the idea behind the Sig DAK trigger. It's almost as light as the Glock but it offers re-strike capability without cycling the slide (in case of a light firing pin strike or whatever).

Once again I ask:

Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.

Why is this ability even pointed to as an advantage?


I don't think a cocked and locked single action is out of vogue. More companies offer more variations of the 1911 today than did when they were "in vouge". Traditionally SA/DA companies like Sig and S&W have even decided to enter the market. Those guys fought like hell to unseat the 1911 in IPSC's heyday as THE competition pistol, from giving away ammo, to supplying pistols at no cost, sponsoring shooters on payroll, even developing new cartridges for those DA/SA pistols.

To see those companies now investing in the market, after IPSC's popularity has declined from its zenith, speaks volumes. They certainly could have gone the "me too" route back then at a lot less expense. But, the fact that they chose to do it now tells me a lot of people still like a cocked and locked 1911.

 

[kengrubb]

There are probably more people who carry and own 1911s because of certain feelings than because they thought it out.

Speculation at best.

C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.

I see a serious problem in relying upon the specific features of any gun. If you practice pulling the trigger rather than tap-racking the gun because it's a SIG and it has second strike capability, if there comes the day when you have to pick up a different gun and protect yourself, you might not make it. Tap-rack works for ANY semiauto pistol. SA, SA/DA, DAO, Glock, Squeeze-Cocker, or something else.

Then there's the issue of whether it's smart to second strike on a dud round. Statistically, I don't know. When I've tap-racked rounds outta my gun that didn't go Boom, after the training exercise I picked up the round, looked at it to try and see the problem, and tried running the round thru the gun again. Most of the time, they will go boom a second time. But, I'm not necessarily a statistically significant body of data.

The fact is, in the time it takes to learn to safely carry C&L, you can learn how to shoot DA/SA and have a better set-up.

Practicing safety off when drawing, and safety on before reholstering, is no different than practicing decock before reholstering. There is NO difference. With a safety/decock pistol, like a Beretta 92F, it's simply safety off when drawing, decock/safety on before reholstering. Virtually no difference to learn and practice this.

DA/SA requires more training time because of the crunchenticker effect. Some discount it, but I've seen very experienced, very skilled, very disciplined shooters consistently throw away that first shot with SIGs and other DA/SA pistols. It's probably why SIG now makes both SAO and DAO (DAK in SIG nomenclature) models.
http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=151
http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=93

For range plinking and target practice they are fine but for serious self defense, you should keep it as simple as possible.

Any gun will do, if you will do.

it is without doubt the safest pistol set-up there is

With the exception of pot metal POS guns, guns are neither safe nor unsafe. Shooters are either safe or unsafe.

There are some +$2000 1911s that will shoot rings around almost anything but they are for target and not carry.

One can easily drop a load of money on a 1911 for carry. It'll shoot well and reliably. They can reliably run hundreds of rounds thru them over the weekend under grueling conditions, without cleaning, and do fine. I've seen $2K and $3K 1911s that were carried, shot, dropped on the ground, and they kept on going.

The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911.

I've done a bit of firearms training, and the guns I consistently see students carrying are 1911s and Glocks. Only occasionally do I see a SIG.

 

[c_yeager]

False premise, "Cocked and Locked" pistols have never been more popular than they are today. I seem to remember that even the military manual of arms for the 1911 called for carry in condition 2, and this was a common mode of carry for all single action pistols until recent decades. Not that it really matters because police generally werent even allowed the carry of such weapons untill recently anyways. Only today is it considered "normal" to carry any pistol in a "cocked and locked" condition, and there are even more choices than before. We still have the same BHPs and 1911s along with about 100 different manufactures of the 1911 platform, and now we get to add a number of CZs and a an HK or two to the mix along with whatever other obscure makes we can pick up.

DA/SA, DAO, and safeaction type pistols have largely taken away the revolver market, but they havent taken a thing away from the single action auto market, which has been growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[Boats]

The old FMs for the 1911 specify that C&L is fine if action with the enemy is imminent, otherwise, Condition 3.

C&L carry really, really, really, terrifies any shooter who can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

Swiping the thumb safety off as the pistol comes up to fire is pretty much like breathing after training with the weapon for a decent interval. Who forgets to breathe?

 

[DRMMR02]

Whatever happened to "Don't trust safeties"? It seems like a chambered and cocked weapon with only a mechanism keeping it from going off is unwise.

 

[BullfrogKen]

DRMMR02 said: Whatever happened to "Don't trust safeties"? It seems like a chambered and cocked weapon with only a mechanism keeping it from going off is unwise.

"Don't trust safeties" . . . to make up for poor or stupid gun handling.

Having a holstered cocked and locked gun is not unsafe. Handling a cocked and locked gun is not unsafe. A practitioner with poor or stupid gun handling skills make any design gun dangerous to those around them.

 

[pale horse]

From my experience in the military (Marine Corps and Army) as well as being a firearms instructor training negates feelings. More often than not people want the have the illusion of safety. With the "Trigger Safety" is a poor design and people still buy it because with Glock its three in one safeties. Bottom line people are stupid and will buy the latest and greatest so they can feel safe.

The guys from Combat Applicaitons Group, USMC FAST, DET 1 and other men who know what the hell they are doing use the 1911 because they train hard. They also understand the weapons capabilities and limitations. These men train to engage targets with the weapon Cocked and Locked. If you train hard with the weapon you will not have to worry about "OH gosh did I take all the safeties off, is the ammo in the mag, is there a round in the chamber?" COME ON GUYS MAN UP and train with your friggin weapons.

In a conversation with a CAG Operator he informed me that the untrained shooters the various new designs, guys who know what they are doing use the 1911 style.

If you dont feel comfortable carrying C&L dont. If you want to pratice and shooting DA/SA go ahead. In my experience people shoot SA better than DA.

Training Negates feelings and ignorance.

PH

 

[albanian]

"Once again I ask:

Quote:
Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.

Why is this ability even pointed to as an advantage?"

Because if you are a revolver shooter or used to DA autos, it is instinct. You will fire the next shot before your brain even starts thinking about what to do. With a revolver, it moves another round into play. With a DA auto, you get to pull the trigger again and get a another chance. If you are used to this, it can be an advantage.

I have never had a factory centerfire defense type round not fire with a second hammer strike with the first was a dud. Rimfires don't count and handloads don't count. Every one of them in my life has fired with a second hit. Does that mean everyone will in the future? I don't know but it seems to me that most of the time they will.

The thing is, pulling the trigger again is automatic and faster than ANY other system. Pretty much if the hammer is dropping, you probably don't have a jam so the chances are that it is a dud and that the dud will fire on the next hammer strike. It is possible that there is no round in the chamber but unless your mag dropped out of your gun or your slide stop failed, this doesn't happen often. In fact, I have never had this happen but I am sure it does happen sometimes.

I am not expert and I am not claiming to be. I am not a professional shooter. I shoot more than most shooters but less some. I just want to keep the system I use as simple as I can. I use SIG as an example but I don't even own a SIG anymore. I prefer my Beretta 92G to any other pistol at the moment.

 

[pale horse]

"Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again."

The correct answer is not a single one. However, I have heard the Police Academy Firearms Instructors same that stuipd comment. Hence not a reputable school at all. Police Academy instructors are bound to deal with some idiots so they need an idiot proof weapon and need idiot proof techeniques.

PH

 

[BullfrogKen]

albanian said: Because if you are a revolver shooter or used to DA autos, it is instinct. You will fire the next shot before your brain even starts thinking about what to do.

Instinct is not a justification for a technique. The manual of arms for manipulating a revolver is different than for a semi-automatic. If one decides to swap between carrying the two types of guns regularly, then the practitioner needs to put in enough practice to be able to discern what to do depending on which gun is in his hand at that moment.


It is possible to train to do a tap, rack, assess/bang on "instinct" as well.


Don't disparage a type of action you don't like based on some non-benefit another system offers. Just say you don't like it.

I have shot enough rounds to have factory ammo fail and not fire on second hits. I've been in training and seen others have it happen to them, too. When a round doesn't go off, the most reliable way to get the gun back in action is to eject it. The tap-rack is universally taught because it is a non-diagnostic method to get the gun back into action regardless of the cause of the failure to fire.

 

[orionengnr]

Ummm...news flash.
It's not "out of vogue"

While we are here, I have to ask....

How many times have you had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire?

In about 40 years of shooting, I can count them on one hand...and have about three fingers left over. I do not consider "second-strike capability" high on my list.

I'll stick with tap-rack-bang as a standard practice. It will work with any semi-auto.

YMMV.

 

[Marshall]

I have to side on the side of odds too. I must be the luckiest SOB on earth because I can count how many times I have had premium factory ammo not fire on one hand too, and I have four fingers and a thumb left over.

 

[albanian]

"How many times have you had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire?

In about 40 years of shooting, I can count them on one hand...and have about three fingers left over. I do not consider "second-strike capability" high on my list."

That is sort of my point. It has happened to me more than a few times but it is far from often. I would say maybe 10 times in my life with high quality ammo that was meant for SD. In each of those cases, a second pull of the trigger did the trick.

I am not saying second strike is a huge advantage but it is an advantage. Why not take every advantage you can get and try to eliminate Murphy's Law? You have to judge the merits for yourself. For me, I like the idea even if it is only a 1 in 5000 chance that it will ever be needed in a gunfight. That is what I roughly calculate the odds being for a light hammer strike/hard primer. Give or take 20,000

You can still do your "tap dance bada bing" or whatever but the fastest and easiest thing to do is just pull the trigger again. This is where DA shooters have an advantage over SA shooters. While the 1911 guy is clearing a dud, the DA guy is already shooting without missing a beat. In a gunfight, the 1911 is dead in this case. Tell me THAT is not an adavntage! Most gun fights happen within 21 feet and most of the time there is no chance of a reload. I doubt much cover can be used in 21 feet so my guess is, the faster you can get rounds on target the better. You have a jam or a dud, you are dead. A dud in a DA auto means a fraction of a second later, you are most likely putting rounds on target again with no loss of grip or sight picture. I dud with a 1911 means you are probably dead. Sorry but I consider it an advantage if only a small one. Isn't that what it is all about?

People will argue over the smallest things like which bullet weight or shape is best or which caliber to pick. I think as long as you are choosing between 9mm .40 and .45, the choice of caliber is not as important as second strike.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I didn't realize that when I carried my Hipower of my Star BM I was "out of vogue"! I better get with it!

 

[BullfrogKen]

albanian said: Tell me THAT is not an adavntage!

OK . . . (quietly and slowly) . . . It is not an advantage.

albanian said: You have a jam or a dud, you are dead. A dud in a DA auto means a fraction of a second later, you are most likely putting rounds on target again with no loss of grip or sight picture. I dud with a 1911 means you are probably dead.

Dead, huh? You do realize that the vast majority of people shot with a handgun, unless the wound is a headshot, will go on to survive their injuries, don't you?

I guess if one stands still, you'll be taking rounds. If you stand still period, shooting, not shooting, admiring your handiwork, whatever . . . the best you can do is tie.

albanian said: You can still do your "tap dance bada bing" or whatever but the fastest and easiest thing to do is just pull the trigger again. . . . Sorry but I consider it an advantage if only a small one.

"BullfrogKen said: Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again."

pale horse said: The correct answer is not a single one.

Not a single reputable trainer teaches that response for a failure to fire in a semi-auto. Not one. You can be an advocate for it if you wish. However, the consensus amongst the training community disagrees with your practice. It is not a benefit.


I suggest you consider seeking some reputable, professional training.


The TRB will handle most malfunctions a semi-auto will experience. You cite a failure to fire happened to you maybe 10 times. Yes, it is rare to see a bad round. Failures to feed, extract, or eject while also rare, are more likely occurances. But, a second pull won't clear those stoppages. Have you measured how much time it takes for you to diagnose which failure you have experienced and apply the effective remedial action of your two techinques? The diagnostic act itself not only takes time, but also diverts attention away from your real problem. Unless you happen to believe your Beretta is perfect, and the gods smile upon you, practice the TRB instead of disparaging it.



I find it ridiculous a second strike ability is still being used by DA/SA advocates as a reason to criticize the SAO, C&L systems. Valid reasons exist that make others more appropriate in some circumstances and applications. This simply isn't among them.

 

[kengrubb]

albanian, in very simple terms, I see a huge advantage in relying upon tap-rack malfunction clearance over a second trigger pull.

As you and others have said, duds don't happen all that often and even when they do a second strike will almost always make them go bang. I don't worry about duds not going boom. I do worry about a number of other things some of which occur on the range while others do not, but all of which do occur in gunfights.

Guns sometimes don't go boom because the magazine springs are weakened or fatigued and the next round doesn't feed. I have Wolff springs in my Glock mags, but as good as those are they ain't perfect. Second strike won't clear these.

After TSHF, sometimes SH. The slide gets bumped or impeded and the gun fails to feed the next round. Hammy fists, limp-wristing, firing from a retention position too close to the chest, unintentional thumb crossover holds, bumping against a wall or table or some other nearby object, and probably a thousand and one other things. Second strike also won't clear these.

The point you're making about ammo reliability--and justification for second strike reliance--is IMHO standing on principle over an incredibly unlikely occurrence but ignoring the danger inherent in your training from a much more likely occurrence. It's impossible to know when the gun doesn't go boom whether it's a dud round, a failure to feed, slide not completely cycling, etc. Tap-rack solves all of these. Second strike only solves a very small number of these.

Only a double feed won't be cleared by tap-rack, but if one practices clearing those (lock-rip-rack-rack-rack-insert-rack) even they can be cleared in an amazing timeframe. When I took FAS-2 (now called Defensive Handgun), the instructor, Tom Haeflinger, was demoing the COF. I think he was going somewhere between double and triple speed on each phase of the COF, and he was shooting all fives with an HK P7. In one phase, he experienced a double-feed, and the P7 has a bit of a reputation for being difficult to clear a double-feed. Tap-rack-click. Lock-rip-rack-rack-rack-insert-rack. Bang-bang-bang. He finished the COF within the time limit and he'd shot all fives.

 

[Magnumite]

Kengrubb, nice post. That last paragraph says it all. Thanks.

 

[Confederate]

Glock do not lack safety. They are the safest guns in the market.

Well, every police agency and department that has gone to Glocks has seen an increase in accidental discharges. Lack of training? Perhaps.

If you won't trust a Glock, then don't trust a DA revolver. Both are Condition 0 guns. Point gun, pull trigger. No active safeties or decockers to fuss with. If you believe that a 12 pound trigger will keep you safe, but a 5 pound trigger is unsafe, then you're violating Rule #3.

I think I would trust myself with one, but it has been a difficult gun to master and there are other issues related to gun retention that make having a light trigger, no safety gun a problem. In Israel, according to one gun writer, carrying a cocked and locked auto is asking for trouble. He's been on the verge of a few fist fights about it, in fact. I strongly endorse it, but were I a chief of police, I'd not move my department into Glocks, but Beretta 92s with 115 gr. JHP.

Massad Ayoob always talks about the legal problems involved with shooting a revolver single action. Even if a good guy fires double action, prosecutors often will try to make juries think otherwise. A 5-pound Glock pull and a 3-pound revolver pull ain't that different. Putting a safety on a trigger doesn't really mitigate things. I wouldn't feel comfortable now carrying a Glock, but with time, who knows?

Hammer decockers don't make a whole lot of sense when one can carry cocked and locked. And many safeties, like those on Smith & Wesson autos (659s, 645s and 6059s) often have to be engaged on officer's weapons. Switching from DA to SA is difficult to master and often the first shot is the most important. Again, Ayoob makes it sound easy, but in reality my thumb has a lot of problem disengaging a safety. To have to do that, then pull a long double action just takes too much time.

The Taurus 92 cock 'n lock Beretta look-alikes may be the best way to go, period. I know many people carry 1911 .45s, but they cost too much in my book for police use. Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

 

[Boats]

Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

Do you have any other stereotypes you'd like to share?

 

[mljdeckard]

If it is out of vogue, someone forgot to tell me.

 

[Waywatcher]

When was cocked and locked ever truly "in vogue"?

Looking back on military, police, and CCW history it seems like it never was.