why is my OAL getting shorter when I cycle my rounds?

[arizona98tj]

) It seems to me, depending on the bullet used when the case is cannelured, that you've ruined the case because first, if a shorter bullet is used next time the case is loaded, it's going to "telescope" into the case until it hits the existing cannelure, and second, if you use a longer bullet, it won't be able to be seated to proper depth. Third, if the cannelure were to "iron" itself out upon firing the case would be weakened at the point of the cannelure. This would be especially true with a cannelure as deep as the one pictured.Might not be a problem on a more shallow one.

I just checked some Winchester SilverTip hollowpoints (.45 ACP) sitting on the shelf and they were done in this fashion.
Much of the .45 ACP military brass (M1911) I have also has a cannelure rolled into the brass. I've never personally seen one rolled as heavily as that shown in the above photo.

I've not found it to be a problem. I've been using/reloading this brass since the mid-70s, using primarily 230 FMJ and 200 SWC cast, without the issues you mentioned above.

YMMV

 

[D. Manley]

"...Then they simply were not made properly. All a .45 ACP reload needs is a very light taper crimp. Enough to remove the bell and maybe a touch more..."

I've gotta' agree and I don't think anyone in the thread has even mentioned the effect of heavy crimp on plated bullets yet. If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec) chamber.

 

[The Bushmaster]

All Federal handgun cases have a cannelure...

 

[jcwit]

I size my cast bullets to .452, and use the Lee factory crimp die. Seeing as how it was stated that the FCD would resize the bullet to a smaller dia. I pulled a rd. apart and micked the bullet--size .452 no change. BTW I started using the FCD after Lee suggested it because I was having trouble with the slid going to full battery. The FCD solved the problem.

 

[Remo-99]

I was having trouble with the slid going to full battery

1911? jcwit?
I had the same issue, when I first loaded for a 45acp 1911.
I was just 'crimping' out the case mouthflare only, but found I needed to taper crimp just a beesdik width more, to get totally reliable chambering rounds, it wasn't much more, the crimp wasn't visible as an actual 'crimp'.
But that's all it took to fix it. once you find what works well for your 1911. Stick to it, that's my thoughts.

 

[35 Whelen]

I just checked some Winchester SilverTip hollowpoints (.45 ACP) sitting on the shelf and they were done in this fashion.
Much of the .45 ACP military brass (M1911) I have also has a cannelure rolled into the brass. I've never personally seen one rolled as heavily as that shown in the above photo.

After I posted that, I recalled seeing some of my 45 brass with a cannelure in the case, but nowhere near the extent of the one pictured. I don't see how that case could possbily be reloaded, but, whose nose!
35W

 

[fguffey]

I purchased 22,000 once fired cases, when separating, I found the cannelure helpful, after that, I ignored it.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

D. Manley, his reloades worked in his 1911 Colt and three other 45 ACPs, not my 45, I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that would chamber anything, nor would I repair it or send it back to get repaired, as you said "If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec)". Winchester (white Box), surplus, Federal, NT, CCI etc., commercial ammo works flawlessly, the cases that are crimped with the sizer die are identical in dimension and appearance to commercial ammo, measuring before and after crimping, there is .003 to .005 thousands difference. I have another complete slide with barrel, my friend call it Mickey, it will shoot just about anything, just not as accurate. I built two 1911s with Remington Rand and Colt slides, both are tight and like new ammo or the ammo that is crimped with the sizer die, to me it is crimping with 'case support', and no, I did not expect anyone to step AWAY from the computer, get out the micrometers, load a few rounds without primer/ powder, try to pull the bullets and or cycle through the pistol.

Heavy crimp, light crimp, no crimp, tapper crimp, roll crimp, Lee's factory crimp and then there is someone saying there way is the only way and me saying 'if you are having problems consider this' or not, there is not much I can not do with dies, without purchasing more dies and spending a lot of money, look for case support dies, spend a lot of money, it is a choice.



F, Guffey

 

[D. Manley]

"...his reloades worked in his 1911 Colt and three other 45 ACPs, not my 45, I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that would chamber anything, nor would I repair it or send it back to get repaired, as you said "If a heavy crimp is required to chamber, you can pretty safely bet its due to a very tight (read, sized below SAAMI spec)"...

No argument here, you've got an accurate gun with a tight chamber and you're doing as you prefer to do to insure function. While your solution works well for you, I don't happen to believe its something recommended for "mass consumption". I've seen the tight chamber problem come up as more & more owners of combat-style handguns increasingly install aftermarket "match" barrels only to find their favorite loads no longer chamber. The problem can be addressed in a number of ways including your solution however, a blanket statement that you cannot overcrimp is just plain wrong and can have both undesirable and dangerous consequences.

In my own practice, I run every, single piece of range brass through EGW U-Dies prior to loading. The extra 1-thousandth provides more than ample bullet tension and a simple removing of the "bell" of the case is all that's required for my needs. My crimps run an average of .376/.377 (9MM), .421/.422 (.40 S&W) and .471/.472 (.45 ACP). I'm yet to have a round fail to chamber in any of my guns (or anyone else's, for that matter).

 

[Walkalong]

a blanket statement that you cannot overcrimp is just plain wrong and can have both undesirable and dangerous consequences.

I agree 100%

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If you have a match barrel with an at SAMMI minimum spec or tighter than SAMMI spec chamber, all bets are off, and you may have to go to extra measures to get your ammo to fit, but over crimping is not the solution.

I bought an EMP that was that way. I started having an occasional failure to chamber completely and the round would jam tight in the chamber. I started measuring everything carefully, bought a case gauge for my loaded rounds, and found that some rounds that were a tight slip fit in the gauge, but were just ever so slightly over SAMMI minimum, would not fully chamber. I sent it back to Springfield, who say they cut EMP barrel chamber to Minimum SAMMI spec by the way, and they just touched it with a reamer and got it up to minimum SAMMI spec. Now I gauge all my 9MM brass BEFORE I load it and scrap anything that does not slip out of the gauge of its own weight. I load all the brass that passed the gauge and have never had another problem with that SAMMI minimum spec chamber and all I do is a very light crimp. I don't even use an EGW undersized die. I don't gauge the loaded ammo. All the cases that were a tight slip fit in the gauge before loading will still fit the gauge after loading with nothing more than a light taper crimp.

 

[fguffey]

Skywalker, you may have to quit playing with your ammo, or not. You chambered some rounds and you did a good thing, you measured the length before and after, because of this you found the cases were shorter, now let you me do the same thing only this time we use a new box of factory loaded ammo and find when chambering new factory ammo the OAL does not change, now we have a way of comparing our reloades knowing the factory that loaded the ammo knows the danger of chambering a round that shortens, they know pressure is increased. Back to your ammo, if you cycle the same round again and again the round shortens, we both know there is something wrong, with the crimp or method.

Back to factory ammo, nice, no bulge, just a case that looks like it was sized and the bullet poured, not seated, how do they do that? at the speeds their machines run.

There is a book on modern reloading that has a section on crimping, if nothing else, the writer made it a point to delay the release of the bullet with a crimp and made it clear there was no advantage to going through the motions of crimping, crimpomg serves two+ purposes, feed and bullet hold, as you have pointed out, a light crimp will not hold the bullet in place when chambered in a slide gun.

One more thing, bullet release, it is going to happen, the case is going to expand, PSI is in all directions be in a neck type case or a straight wall, the case is going to expand and when it does, the bullet is released, he went on to gives pressures required to unseat a bullet with a go-rillo crimp and a whimppy crimp, and again, he said there was no reason to be iffy about the crimp.

F. Guffey



F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

One pistol does not like reloads, option? send it back for repair? If you are talking about the last two builds both had complete slides, Remington and Colt of the 40s, nothing aftermarket about either barrel, on those two, one wants to go to the range, any magazine good ammo, the other, it likes expensive magazines and good ammo without the magazine, leave it at home..

Send it back, chamber it, get another barrel, Ruger P90, again I would not trade the accuracy for a pistol that shoots like everyone expects it to and as I said, Dillon is in the business of testing and the development of equipment, if I have done it once, they have done it thousands of time.

Too much crimp? you know there is too much crimp when the straight wall case looks like a bottle neck case, gages are nice, problem. I do not shoot gages, I have no problem removing a barrel on a SA and using the chamber to determine the ability of the loaded ammo to chamber.

Rhetorical, I do not expect an answer, I size a case, seat a bullet, now I have a bulge, the diameter of the case below the bullet did not change, the top of the case expanded, stretched, and the stretch is not always the same, do I have to accept that, if I do and take all of the loads to the range, will all of the ammo chamber? Will some jam? I did not go to the range to sorting ammo by size, I size first then go to the range and I do not want ammo that shortens when it is chambered, the first time, the second time or third.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Skywalker, think about this when considering crimping your cases, shortening the OAL when chambering increases pressure AND there is not one answer, and there it gets complicated when two or things are going on at one time.

There is a phenomena that happens every once in a while, when it does the answer is always allusive. A case with primer and bullet/no powder will drive the bullet out of the case and into the barrel and if you use Federal primers, no telling, when we go back and add powder to the case, the case now has a primer, powder and bullet, now we have a primer that will explode and powder that will burn, not at the same speed and remember, the primer explosion is over the top of the powder, so the pressure created by the primer gets there first causing the bullet to hit the forcing cone in the barrel and if not timed perfectly, will stop causing a bullet seated against the lands condition, next event, burning powder building pressure with a plugged barrel. then the phenomena, you can take their advice and put a girley crimp on your cases or you can get serious and consider it just could be bad advice thinking their way is the only way.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

I do not want ammo that shortens when it is chambered

Neck tension. No amount of crimp will make up for poor neck tension. Some loads need a very good crimp. Others just need a light crimp, but all of them need sufficient neck tension.

then the phenomena, you can take their advice and put a girley crimp on your cases or you can get serious and consider it just could be bad advice thinking their way is the only way.

Again, sufficient neck tension with a reasonable crimp will suffice. Your scaring the neewbies unnecessarily. Pressure excursions, detonations and their existence or not is an entirely different discussion unrelated to the crimp debate.

 

[jcwit]

Good grief, I've been reloading since the later 1950's, never have I had the troubles listed. Yes their have been some bumps along the way but nothing like this. Bigest problem was with my Kimber .45 with a Ed Brown match barrel installed. Didn't go to full battery and the Lee FCD fixed it as I stated earlier. In looking at the reloaded cartridges I think the FCD adds neck tension, whether or not it works. Looking at some of the posts it seems some want to make this rocket science, if it were the Lawers would have put a stop to reloading long ago.

 

[Walkalong]

I think the FCD adds neck tension

Nope. The lead won't spring back and the brass will. It can actually lesson neck tension in some cases, but it can not improve it.

it seems some want to make this rocket science, if it were the Lawers would have put a stop to reloading long ago.

Agree 100%

 

[jcwit]

Whatever, you may/probably are right. End result however was that the FCD solved my problem as Mr. Lee said it would.

 

[The Bushmaster]

jcwit...Ya have to give Walkalong some slack. I've just been able to convince him that Lee FCD is good for .30-30. We can't pull him along by leaps and bounds. We must bring him along gently...

 

[jcwit]

Didn't mean anything bad with my last post, just that it fixed my problem. Walkalong don't take it the wrong way. My chamber is so tight on this 45, 1911 that if it gets dirty it will give me problems. But a quick pass with a patch and solvent cures it.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong don't take it the wrong

I didn't, besides, I have a thick skin. You have to when you are opinionated like me.

Our number one rule in the shop I run is: "Leave your feelings in the truck"

Sometimes folks forget, and then they have to take their trampled feelings and put them away. Never a pretty sight.

Bushmaster has not seen my latest Lee CFCD post on .us, or he would be in shock.

 

[P-32]

There are a couple of things I've found which will allow bullet set back and this is what the OP has. My second center fire pistol was a 1911. I had some learning curves to work though some 30 years ago.

I have to agree quit a bit with Walkalong. The biggest problem I see is worn out brass. I'm pretty good at not leaving too much brass for the brass gods and there comes a time when the brass has been worked enough it won't size properly.

I don't pick up range brass unless I watched the guy fire new brass out of a factory box. I also like a verbal confirmation it is new brass. I'm lucky to have enough 45 ACP brass to wear a couple of pistols out anyways. I don't waste my time on picking up brass I'm going to recycle into the bad brass bin either. Adding a stiffer crimp only makes the problm worse.

Some one said 45 ACP head spaces on the extractor. This is pure Horse manure. A properly seat up load will head space on the mouth of the case like it is supposed to.

Purhaps the OP is belling too much to start with or maybe has undersized bullets. I started with Lee Carbides and changed to RCBS. I do not find I need a Lee fcd as my rounds load and work very well by removing the bell and sizing the crimp to .472. One of my 1911's has a Kart barrel and my reloads function just fine in it.

 

[coachman48]

skywalkrNCSU,

I had this same problem when I started reloading and Walkalong and others gave me good advice and helped me out, so they will give you some GOOD advice. I found that any FACTORY AMMO will do the same thing if it is cycled enough so I quit worrying about it. I just bear in mind that if I cycle my ammo alot it will shorten the OAL on my reloads so I just load and shoot them. I also found out you can over crimp trying too get the bullet tighter in the case so much so that I would deform the FMJ bullets, so I just bell case enough too get bullet started in the case and crimp maybe slightly more than just removing the bell, which by looking you can not even tell it is Belled. Hope this helps from one NEW Reloader to another.

Bob

 

[fguffey]

there is spiking or as someone else said, bullet movement is not good, there are ways that work especially if your life depends on it, the bayonet crimp is for the heaviest of recoil, cut a groove in the bullet, seat the bullet then dent the neck of the case into the groove, to prevent the bullet from moving back when chambered or by recoil, put a groove in the case at the base of the bullet, the groove prevents the bullet from seating further into the case but does nothing to prevent the bullet from moving forward, a groove in the case and stake the neck, that is labor intensive.

Time, use a good crimp to delay the release of the bullet, this allows the powder to get started (good) by delaying the release of the bullet, HOW? with a crimp, the difference? 300 PSI + or - up to 500 PSI, anything over 500 PSI would be better but with a crimp of anykind, that is maximum, but when time is added to the scheme of events, that is it.

F. Guffey