Why is the 45-70 so popular?

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CornCod said:
I had a nice H&R Single-shot in 47-70 that I bought off my wife's husband on a whim. I liked it even though I didn't shoot it much. I gifted it to my wife's nephew who loved guns, but it was destroyed in a house fire a year later. I think people like it because its a very hot cartridge that can be fired out of a commonly available and affordable lever-action rifle, the Marlin. I assume that 90% of the folks who own a .375 Holland and Holland bolt-action have never taken a shot at an elephant or a Cape Buffalo, but get a Walter Mittyish thrill out of owning a big boomer. I know a very pleasant corrections officer that owns one of those Barrett .50BMG semi-autos as HIS ONLY GUN! Its the same principle with the 45-70 Govt.
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You weave a tangled web with the branches of that family tree...
 
BigBore44 said:
Because the answer is simply that none of the 3 could have performed better than the other as they all achieved a DRT. And all three cartridges HAVE achieved that result before in real life.
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I don't agree but not for the reasons 'some' might think. I don't judge a cartridge's performance based on the presence of a dead critter. I want to see what the bullet actually did. I've had animals drop dead on the spot from a bullet that was an utter failure. If the .30's just penetrated far enough to reach the heart and came completely unglued but the .45-70 punched all the way through, I'm going to consider the .45-70's performance "better", whether the critter ran 100yds or dropped on the spot. Same as if you had used a heavier or tougher bullet and the critter ran 20yds. Because a bullet that has a greater propensity to stay together and exit is going to be a more reliable performer, especially with less than ideal presentation. The next shot you take with that shallow penetrating, frangible bullet might not yield such a happy result. This is why I stick to heavy cast bullets in big bores. They might not knock them over but they're almost guaranteed to work.
 
CraigC said:
I don't agree but not for the reasons 'some' might think. I don't judge a cartridge's performance based on the presence of a dead critter. I want to see what the bullet actually did. I've had animals drop dead on the spot from a bullet that was an utter failure. If the .30's just penetrated far enough to reach the heart and came completely unglued but the .45-70 punched all the way through, I'm going to consider the .45-70's performance "better", whether the critter ran 100yds or dropped on the spot. Same as if you had used a heavier or tougher bullet and the critter ran 20yds. Because a bullet that has a greater propensity to stay together and exit is going to be a more reliable performer, especially with less than ideal presentation. The next shot you take with that shallow penetrating, frangible bullet might not yield such a happy result. This is why I stick to heavy cast bullets in big bores. They might not knock them over but they're almost guaranteed to work.
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Craig, I don't disagree. But I also wasn't specifying bullets, but the caliber/cartridges.
 
CraigC said:
I don't agree but not for the reasons 'some' might think. I don't judge a cartridge's performance based on the presence of a dead critter. I want to see what the bullet actually did. I've had animals drop dead on the spot from a bullet that was an utter failure. If the .30's just penetrated far enough to reach the heart and came completely unglued but the .45-70 punched all the way through, I'm going to consider the .45-70's performance "better", whether the critter ran 100yds or dropped on the spot. Same as if you had used a heavier or tougher bullet and the critter ran 20yds. Because a bullet that has a greater propensity to stay together and exit is going to be a more reliable performer, especially with less than ideal presentation. The next shot you take with that shallow penetrating, frangible bullet might not yield such a happy result. This is why I stick to heavy cast bullets in big bores. They might not knock them over but they're almost guaranteed to work.
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I agree with this basic approach, even though I don't necessarily share your love of cast bullets for hunting - mostly just not something I've spent a lot of time with. Evaluating performance, not whether the animal drops, is spot on though. For softs I want expansion, weight retention, and for anything but a direct frontal shot an exit wound. Ideally you'll get an exit wound even if bone is hit on either the front or back side. Despite all the yaking on this thread, for elk I would be happy with a .308 IF it had a bullet I know will give me those properties. I don't hunt with a .308 or any other .30 cal so I would only be speculating what that is, but my first guess would be the 180gr partition. For bottleneck cartridges I generally try to find bullets that drop out the bottom of their performance window at about 400y. Less, and the bullet's too tough. More, and you risk it coming apart. The 180gr a-frame for example is probably too tough for the .308.

I have taken elk with my 7mm mag (using the 175gr a-frame) and my .45-90 (405gr Woodleigh). Both gave good performance, although the .45 did leave a much more robust wound channel and more blood to track if it was required. It wasn't.
 
Llama Bob said:
I haven't re-written anything. First off, the SAAMI pressure max for .30-06 is 60KPSI. For .308 it's 62KPSI. Second the .308 is a more efficient cartridge than the .30-06. The -06 has too shallow a shoulder angle and as a result expends more energy accelerating it's own powder granules down the barrel. Third the powders happen to match up a bit better with the .308 for 200 and 220gr projectiles. Combine those three effects, and the gap is effectively closed. The army knew this 60 years ago, but apparently it's news around here...
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Nonsense.

In the 1950s the army simply realized that with modern powders they could replicate the original 30-06 loading (150 gr. @ ~2700 fps) in a smaller case. Guess what, modern powders improved the original 30-06 as well.
I'm not saying the two belong to a different power class but in many situations/bullet combo the 30-06 has the edge....claiming they are "practically equal" is almost like saying that the 30-06 and the 300 Win Mag are "practically equal" which is nonsense.
The day I can see a 308 pushing a Woodleigh 240 gr. bullet at 2400+ fps with no overpressure signs, we can talk....
 
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Back to the OP question...why the 45-70 is so popular?? Simple, with modern loadings in modern rifles, you have a short-medium range cartridge that is not that far from 458 Win Mag performance available in a light, handy and way less expensive lever action rifle...what not to like? A modern 45-70 is a legitimate dangerous game (minus Rhino and Elephant) round.
 
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saturno_v said:
The day I can see a 308 pushing a Woodleigh 240 gr. bullet at 2400+ fps with no overpressure signs, we can talk....
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Considering there is no cataloged Woodleigh 240gr, that might be a bit difficult. If you just got confused and really mean the 220gr, then loading to 2.8" OAL with about 46.8gr of RL17 depending on your exact brass will get you 2575 ft/s at SAAMI max pressure. 26" barrel.

Now if you really did mean a 240gr, it'll be about 10% longer than the 220gr - say no longer than 1.5" - and you should be able to drive it to 2415 ft/s at SAAMI max, again with RL17.

So in fact, not only can we "talk" but your post was brought to the table by interior ballistics ignorance :D

I'll say it again - .308 only gives up between 50 and 150 ft/s of velocity to .30-06 depending on the bullet, all else being equal. If one has acceptable terminal ballistics, so does the other. They're both good or both bad.
 
Llama Bob said:
Considering there is no cataloged Woodleigh 240gr, that might be a bit difficult. If you just got confused and really mean the 220gr, then loading to 2.8" OAL with about 46.8gr of RL17 depending on your exact brass will get you 2575 ft/s at SAAMI max pressure. 26" barrel.

Now if you really did mean a 240gr, it'll be about 10% longer than the 220gr - say no longer than 1.5" - and you should be able to drive it to 2415 ft/s at SAAMI max, again with RL17.

So in fact, not only can we "talk" but your post was brought to the table by interior ballistics ignorance :D

I'll say it again - .308 only gives up between 50 and 150 ft/s of velocity to .30-06 depending on the bullet, all else being equal. If one has acceptable terminal ballistics, so does the other. They're both good or both bad.
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No cataloged 240 gr. Woodleigh?? Really?? Like this one??

"Woodleigh Bullets 30-06 Springfield (308 Diameter) 240 Grain Weldcore Protected Point Box of 50"

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...-240-grain-weldcore-protected-point-box-of-50

You can buy a box of 50 of your "uncataloged" bullets for $38.99 + shipping

Saw it with my eyes...2400+ fps...no overpressure signs out of a 24" Weatherby rifle....

I bet i can tell you a thing or two about internal ballistics my friend....

Again, we agree that performance are close....but not not equal and the 30-06 is simply much more versatile as bullet weight increase, this is one of the reasons it remain so popular.

150 fps difference is not trivial....

Double Tap ammo (hot loaded ammo still sold over the counter so not took it to the extreme for obvious legal reasons) with real world firearms tested figures.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/

180 gr,. Swift Scirocco II

308 Winchester 2650 fps out of a 22" Remington 700
30-06 Springfield 2801 fps out of a 22" Remington 700
300 Winchester Magnum 3051 fps out of a 24" Hill Country rifle.

As I said, it is almost like saying that there is no practical difference between a 30-06 and a 300 Win Mag.

Case closed, back on topic, the mighty 45-70......
 
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I'm so tired of the .30-06 slobberfest. You can't keep adding mass and assume you're gaining anything. If you "need" a 240gr .30-06, you need a bigger cartridge. :confused:
 
saturno_v said:
Saw it with my eyes...2400+ fps...no overpressure signs out of a 24" Weatherby rifle....
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Which we've already figured out the .308 can do too. I know you want to believe the .30-06 is magic, but it's not. it's actually anti-magic - substantially less efficient and powerful than it should be for it's size and length. There are three design mistakes (or really, holdovers from 19th century design) in the .30-06 - too low a MAP, too much body taper, and too steep a shoulder. That's why .308 keeps being able to match it :D
 
Llama Bob said:
Which we've already figured out the .308 can do too. . That's why .308 keeps being able to match it :D
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It doesn't but feel free to keep to believe what you want to believe in your alternative reality....back on topic please, let's not keep hijacking the thread.
 
Don't have a 45 70 yet but it's on my wish list. Just wanted to say if the 30 06 is 50 to 150 fps faster than the 308 with heavier bullets wouldn't that actually mean it is better... I mean anything you shoot with isn't going to notice the difference but it is faster even if it's a just a slight amount...
 
Nuclear said:
Wait until you actually shoot full power 45-70 rounds out of it. I made it through 3 rounds before cheerfully going back to shooting 30-06.
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Indeed. I posted in one of these threads my 30-06s all have steel buttplates and are quite comfortable to shoot and very effective on game. Up to and including 1800 lbs Alaska moose and large brown bear.
But our resident ElmerKeiths insist 450 gr .50 cal. at 1900 is required to kill game.
 
CraigC said:
No one has insisted that in any way, shape, form or fashion.

How does the "the .30-06 is the answer to every question" nonsense get into a .45-70 thread???
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It's bound to happen in any thread about a round that has a decent or at least decently vocal fan club. the .30-06 fanboys must challenge the .45-70 fanboys and vice versa. We live in a time where we all have to prove the ultimate superiority of our personal favorite everything, lest we lose man-points.
 
To answer the OP: Because this is a damn sexy gun and by law the only thing that it is allowed to eat is .45-70

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