Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Elkins45, May 3, 2019.
sufficient penetration and drive expansion to the desired extent. The higher sectional density of 147's means that these parameter are pretty easily met without cranking up velocity.
People who think KE plays a part in incapacitation are chasing velocity with 115's and 124's. People who think momentum is a predictor of ultimate performance aren't looking at 9mm much at all.
A higher-velocity 147 is sort of like the pork chop at the vegan restaurant... most people who walk in the front door aren't interested in it. But +P data is available for 9mm from some data sources. For example: http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
Because 147gr +P+ made it obsolete ?
I guess too that roller-delayed blowback would also be better than straight blowback for getting higher velocity from the 147gr +P out of a carbine.
Yep, my go to SD ammo including for my Walther PPS which is a sweet shooter using it. Lucky Gunner ammo test shows almost the same expansion as regular HST 147 but better penetration due to about 50 FPS increase in muzzle velocity. I bought mine in 50 round boxes meant for law enforcement, which are harder to get now, and don't know how readily available it is in the 20 round package.
There is such a thing as .40 S&W.
Stops bear. Scroll to bottom for story.
The original 147 gr loads got a bad reputation for not impacting fast enough for reliable expansion. But with modern loads that problem has been solved. If you believe the FBI their testing shows modern 147 gr loads at about 1000 fps provide the most effective option for 9mm shooters. They made the change, and I'm seriously considering changing to the same ammo.
I thought the FBI went with a 135 +P?
This is my GOTO 9mm ammo
This is my GOTO .40 S&W. The ballistics are VERY similar to the 9mm HST Tactical 147 gr.
In a Duty Length Handgun you may get 0.62" and 17" of penetration. Bump it to +P and the pedals fold back farther and you end up with 0.58" and 19" of penetration.
The place this doesn't hold is shorter barreled handguns where the +P helps get the bullet back into the optimum envelope. Of course this introduces it's own set of issues in small handguns.
Controlled Expansion Bullets (Like XTP) and Bullets unique to only one round (Like Federal Tactile Bonded 135 +P) are another exception.
I tend to pick a round that meets;
In that order and the parameters may vary according to the application.
.380 2.75" - Hornady XTP 90
9mm 3.125" - Federal Micro HST 150
9mm 4" - Fed Tac Bonded 135 +P
.40 4" - Rem GS 180
.45 3.3" - Rem GS 185
SAAMI has specs on ammunition manufactured in the United States. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
"+P" is not "nothing but marketing", but is differentiated from standard pressure rounds because it is loaded to higher pressures to achieve a higher velocity.
Now, "+P+" ? That's another story. SAAMI doesn't publish specs on +P+, so some manufacturers will use that designation for ammunition that may exceed SAAMI +P specs. Notice "may exceed"...…"+P+ is purely "nothing but marketing".
Stopping a threat isn't just being able to "hit your target". If that was true firearm and cartridge development would have ended at .22Short.
Bad guys drive cars, wear body armor and hide behind cover. "Standard loads" may not provide the penetration necessary to penetrate windshields, heavy clothing or sheetrock.
"Flinch" is a training problem that can be corrected and isn't caused by +P being on the headstamp.
Maybe not, and as the legendary Patrick Swazey said in that immortal B-movie classic, opinions vary -- and I'll certainly be assigning more credibility to that agency's research over, say, what I read on the internet. Y'all may think I'm just smoking something that's legal up here now, but there's some smart cats working for the FBI.
Apparently neither is the ATF.
+p and +p+ came much later, and there was no standardization to them anyways and IMHO, probably only useful in short barrel pistols.
SAAMI has had specs (standardization) for +P for DECADES.
When it was a cataloged item the P9HST4 147gr +P load produced a whopping 50 fps (and 34 ft/lbs) more than their standard pressure 147gr P9HST2 load. What's the real world benefit? Why a higher pressure load to maybe realize another 50fps at the muzzle and another 34 ft/lbs?
The standard pressure P9HST4 147gr load is very popular among LE.
Of course, so is their P9HST3 124gr +P load, so by offering both popular bullet weights and loads Federal can enjoy getting a little more of their share of the LE/Gov ammo pie.
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