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Why Isn't the M-1 Carbine the 1st Assault Weapon

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by zastros, Mar 8, 2006.

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  1. zastros

    zastros Member

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    I know that the GW44(?) is known as the first assault rifle. But why? The M-1 was select fire (or at least the M-2 was) and used an intermediate caliber shell, with a smaller footprint so to speak. Was it the way the German weapon was constructed, or the firing mechanism? Or something else?

    Forgive me if this has already been covered.

    zastros
     
  2. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    The M-2 was select fire, anyways.

    I guess the cartridge wasnt intermediate enough.

    It was really more of a submachine-gun carbine than a rifle carbine.

    Perhaps with a more powerful cartridge and larger magazines it could be considered an assualt rifle.
     
  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Because we are not Krauts we don't get to make up kewl words like Sturmgewehr.
    And because we are nice Americans, we don't assault anybody.
     
  4. ABTOMAT

    ABTOMAT Member

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    STG44, although I have to give the FG42 its props, even if it was a weird full-power machine rifle (?-never used that description before).

    I think the .30 carbine round just wasn't rifley enough. Something else that gets overlooked these days is the layout of the weapon. The M-1/M-2 is very traditional, same with the M-14. The STG44 had a nearly straight stock and a pistol grip, to allow better control for FA/burts.
     
  5. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    HA! +1 Jim Watson.



    .30 carbine doesn't really cut it as an intermediate cartridge, it is a lot closer to a pistol round, than a rifle round.
     
  6. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Because Hitler is the one that coined the term "assault rifle" and he did so in calling the STG44 a Sturmgewehr.
     
  7. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    FWIW, the German "sturmgewehr" was reportedly coined by old Adolf himself, he being big on assaulting people as long as he didn't personally get his hands dirty. Actually, "sturm" would probably be better translated in this case as "attack."

    In the U.S., the term "assault rifle" was rarely used until arms dealers started to import Chinese made semi-auto AK-47's and wanted a catchy term for advertising. They didn't care about the American meaning of "assault" as a criminal act, the implications of the term, or how the term would be used against us, they only cared about making money. Of course they handed the anti-gun gang (who never thought of the term) the biggest club and propaganda tool in decades.

    But they retired rich.

    Jim
     
  8. Burt Blade

    Burt Blade Member

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    The M-1 Carbine fires what is essentially a pistol round. If that gun counted as an "assault rifle", so would the 1928 Thompson and other submachineguns.

    It tends to lack the effective range of a true "assault rifle".
     
  9. robvious

    robvious Member

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    IMO - If Ruger makes a single action revolver chambered in the cartridge,
    it doesn't qualify as a 'assault rifle'. :D
     
  10. Limeyfellow

    Limeyfellow Member

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    Even though the StG44 has the name it can't even be considered as the first assault rifle. For instance the Cei-Rigotti has all the features of an assault rifle (select fire, intermediate cartridge and designed in 1890, and modified in 1900. In 1903 it even used a modern gas system.

    The StG44 wasn't even the first assault rifle adopted by a military. That would be the Russian Federov Avtomat in 1916. They just didn't have enough of them in World War 1.

    All the Germans did was coin a phrase decades later.
     
  11. Ridge

    Ridge Member

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    Well let's not forget J.M.B.'s B.A.R. the first of which were select fire.

    While the 30-06 isn't really an iterm. cartridge,it shouldn't be over looked.


    But while the M-1 and M-2 carbine aren't known for being the most powerful carbine round,it should still get the nod for being our first AR.
     
  12. pauli

    pauli Member

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    to me, "assault rifle" means a non traditional layout. the visual cues that tell you "oh, that's an assault rifle." otherwise, it's just a funky battle rifle, or carbine, or machine gun, or machine pistol.
     
  13. KriegHund

    KriegHund Member

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    A modified cheau-cheau in ww1 couldve been the first "Assualt rifle".

    Shorter barrel and intermediate cratridge. The gun wouldve sucked (magazine and bolt were horrid) but it wouldve been an AR.
     
  14. Topgun

    Topgun member

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    Well, if it ain't an assault rifle, it's sure one helluva "tweener."

    :)

    "Assault Tweener??"
     
  15. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    I think 24 pounds pushes that puppy a bit outside the "assault rifle" category :evil:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. loadedround

    loadedround Member

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    m-1 carbine

    Lest we forget...the M-1 Carbine was designed to replace the 19911A1 45ACP Pistol for the REMF troops.
     
  17. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Zactly.

    Don
     
  18. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Yup, but the applications went a bit beyond the intended use.
    Some GIs liked the light weight, large magazine capacity, and M2 full auto. Some disliked the lower power.
     
  19. trbon8r

    trbon8r Member

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    I thought the M2, the full auto version of the M1 carbine didn't make it into service until after WW2 and saw action mostly in Korea?
     
  20. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

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    For what it’s worth, the BAR is an automatic rifle … obviously.

    ~G. Fink
     
  21. AJ Dual

    AJ Dual member

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    +1 on what ABTOMAT said.
    "Assult Rifle" has ergonomic and layout differences, besides the simple criteria of "intermediate cartridge" and "select fire".

    I would think that the term "Assult Rifle" would need ALL the following attributes:

    - Intermediate rifle cartridge for both magazine capacity/weight, and balisticaly matched for close to moderate range infantry engagments.
    - Detachable magazine w/capacity of 20 rounds or more.
    - Select fire. Semi automatic or fully automatic. (And/or burst)
    - Pistol Grip.
    - In-line stock.
    - Over all length no greater than 40".
    - Weight less than 12 lbs/5 Kg fully loaded. (Not counting accessories)

    Other rifles like the M1 Carbine, the SKS, the M14, the G3, the BAR, or the FAL all fail to meet one or more of the criteria. They are all "carbines" or "battle rifles". (Some Assult Rifles like the AR/M-16 family could also be construed as "carbines" as well, but not all "carbines", like the M1, can be considred Assult Rifles.)
     
  22. Essex County

    Essex County Member

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    I carried the M2 in the sixties and I shure liked it a bunch. And yes, I knew the limitation of the round.........Essex
     
  23. loadedround

    loadedround Member

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    M1 carbine

    I carried an M-2 Carbine myself in 62-63 and wish I could have kept it.
     
  24. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    "Lest we forget...the M-1 Carbine was designed to replace the 19911A1 45ACP Pistol for the REMF troops."

    True to a point. In the pre-war era, pistols were carried by squad leaders and company grade officers (lieutenants and captains), BAR men, assistant BAR men, machinegunners and assistant machinegunners, mortar men, MP's, etc. Most of those were far from being REMF's (call a WWII BAR man that and you better hope he doesn't have his BAR any more).

    And, it was a fact of life that most of those issued the pistol were not very proficient in its use. (That is a polite way of saying they couldn't hit the proverbial barn door with the .45.) Since the pistol was mostly for those whose primary duty was not fighting or as a secondary weapon, replacing it with the carbine was thought to provide more usefulness, at the expense of some convenience. Officers of field grade and up continued to carry pistols.

    Jim
     
  25. mordechaianiliewicz

    mordechaianiliewicz Member

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    In terms of the class in question, an assault rifle could not be used at an indoor pistol only range whereas a .30 Carbine can.

    A rifle should have bullets going atleast 2000 fps out the bbl frm the barrel.
     
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