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Why isn't there a 22 WSM?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dr T, Jan 24, 2019.

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  1. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    While I don't like the .17's in general, I do like the way the .17 WSM was designed: Take a .27 caliber nail gun blank and neck it down to .17. And, I can see the market justification: People have liked the .17 HMR, so more must be better.

    But in this day of cartridge proliferation, why isn't there a .22 WSM made by taking the .27 nail-gun blank and necking it to .22? Given the developments in powder and projectile design over the last decade or so, the performance may be able to get close to the 22 Hornet. In a handgun, I think it would be superior to the 5.7x28.

    Is the market just too small? Or is there something else I am missing.
     
  2. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    the 17 shoots flatter, and will take the sales for target shooting, it has too much power for a simple blowback vest pocket type firearm, and the rim makes it problematic from a double stack compact magazine. In a revolver, its rimifire nature makes it too unreliable, at least people will say it is too unreliable. that leaves only the hunting application, and its hard to imagine a whole new rounds will take off in the same size/weight/price range as a .223, with only slightly less expensive, unreloadable ammunition of iffy long term availability, and less power. Just my thoughts.
    .
     
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  3. George P

    George P Member

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    There are two ways products come to market. A demand for something arises and makers create the product to fill the demand; or, the makers gamble on a "build it and they will come" approach. The issue with the latter is the initial start up costs might not get covered if the demand turns out to be insignificant, and that is not a cost most gun companies in today's competitive market can afford to gamble on. Some have gone on to "fame and glory" so to speak, but many others have just faded away into obscurity.
     
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  4. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    Now you call it the .22 WSM Creedmore Tactical, and you will sell it by the millions.
     
  5. George P

    George P Member

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    Marketing DOES play a major role. I remember fads like The Pet Rock; made the originators millions........
     
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  6. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
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  7. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    If I was to guess, I’d guess no gun/ammunition manufacturers figure there’s a large enough market for a 22 WSM. As for myself, I wouldn’t buy a 22 WSM because I already have a 22 WMR and a 22-250 Remington. If I wanted something in-between (which I actually have been hankering for) I’d get a 22 Hornet or 22 K-Hornet… something I could reload.
     
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  8. RedlegRick

    RedlegRick Member

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    After that round (.17WSM) came out and I learned about its parent cartridge, wonder why they didn't just make a .27 rimfire round next. Yeah, I know, yet another pointless caliber, but it seems to be the in thing these days.
     
  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Lots of stops to make in there.
    Elmer Keith said he would rather have seen a return of the .25 Stevens HV than the .22 WRM.
    Remington experimented with a rimfire in the .26 range.

    We had a long thread on a hypothetical 6.8mm pocket pistol. I have wondered if a rimfire might work in guns not likely to be reloaded for; if the ignition were reliable. (My S&W Plastic M&P .22 Compact has had Zero failures with CCI Mini-Mag and I think it is 100% with Aquila HV.)
     
  10. BigBlue 94

    BigBlue 94 Member

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    .223 wssm :D

    For something inbetween 22 mag and 223/22-250 I'd recommend either the hornet or 221 fireball
     
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  11. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    It takes a significant amount of investment capital, industry partners, and marketing to introduce a new caliber with new rifles and handguns. I'm not saying it's not possible, it's just that I understand how the 17 WSM came to be - the common 27 caliber blank as a "bigger brother" to the successful 17HMR. If 22 mag was flying off the shelves, someone would be pushing this concept. But right now, when it's hard enough to sell 223 Remington, the list of those willing to take the risk on a cartridge like this is short.

    If someone has good answers to:
    Who is the target market? It can't be a plinker since for good or bad 22LR has that on lockdown. If it is strictly for the hunter, good luck. Hunting is in decline and the volume isn't there. The biggest sales growth lately has been in the "high bc" department, but something like this would probably use a tipped 40gr or 50gr .224", so it won't come close to a 223 Rem in velocity and it would always have the comparison as being "less than both the 223 Rem and 22 Hornet." As cool and nostalgic as the 22 Hornet is, not many people are looking for that caliber as the next one to add to their collection.

    Then, what perceived need does this meet? Bigger than 22mag, smaller than 22 Hornet. What can I take with it or use it for that I can't do with the others?

    Finally, what would you call it? 22 WSM? Winchester already had a 223 WSSM which was a train wreck. 22 Super Mag? IDK. It has to be both catchy and not confusing from previous products. But, I agree that something like the "5.6 Creedmoor Super Tac R" would probably sell a ton with a partnership with a Savage MSR chambering. Now to get CCI on board. And some Hornady V-max bullets.

    ... Ok, I'm rationalizing now. This concept is cooler than I thought at the beginning of this post.
     
  12. RedlegRick

    RedlegRick Member

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    I have a question now, regarding the word 'Creedmore'. Is it copyrighted to any one entity or fair use rules apply?

    Want to know before I start a multipage thread extolling the virtues of a nonexistent cartridge I thought up and want to get a bunch of strangers to do all the heavy lifting for me as regards ballistics, engineering, and marketing. Don't want to take all the credit, though, just want to be a footnote in its glorious history.
     
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  13. BigBlue 94

    BigBlue 94 Member

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    Afaik, creedmoor was a rifle range/match style championship shoot back east somewhere. Been around as long as centerfire cartridges... though it closed in 1907
     
  14. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

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    Are you all not aware of the .22 TCM from Armscor? It is a bottleneck cartridge based on the 5.56 NATO. Armscor/RIA makes 1911 clones for it perhaps exclusively as a combo with 9 mm. What more could you ask for.
     
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  15. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    That's what I came to say.
     
  16. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    22TCM and guess what they even offer a rifle chambered for it.
     
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  17. George P

    George P Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creedmoor_Rifle_Range

     
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  18. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    There is a market for it. Albeit, not a very big one.

    On public hunting land in many states you have to use a rim fire to hunt hogs during small game season.

    .22 WMR works but “.22 WSM” would work better. It would work better yet if said theoretical .22 WSM was manufactured with Partition or A-Frame bullets of 55 gr or heavier.

    They could call it the .22 WAMR. (wammer) Winchester Awesome Magnum Rimfire.
     
  19. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    Hmmm--What if you went one better and necked down the 9 mm Flobert to .22? The cartridge case would have to be re-designed to handle the pressure--but it would be a very interesting rimfire rifle round. A Fiocchi 9 mm Flobert shotshell pushes 1/4 oz (109 gr) of lead 600 fps...
     
  20. adcoch1

    adcoch1 Member

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    I've thought this one over, and the practical upscale for the nailgun blank from .177 would be to 20 cal. It offers a better chance for a market than 22, since 22 already has quite a few smaller than 223 cases out there.
     
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