Why no 32 Super Auto?

[starling]

What would be the market? I got a couple of Gun Magazines as "stocking stuffer's" and was made aware there are even more 9MM Compact and Sub Compact guns out there that I have never heard of. Same can be said of .380's, even double stack .380's. You really think a .32 Super would sell?

It might if you can get 30 super penetration in a pocket 380 and at the same time have it double stack while not making the grips more than a hair thicker. Kind of like a straight case rimless 32naa +p double stack holding 14-15 rounds in something the size of a lcp/p3at/pico whatever pocket gun.

Thats how you shake up an industry. This is like converting a 9mm to a 7.65 luger. I would be more excited if Federal came out with some hot 7.62x25 defensive ammunition.

 

[P Flados]

Starling, the way I read the marketing, the 30 Super Carry is being sold more as a 32 ACP (very small gun capable) and 380 (more power and capacity for similar sized guns) "replacement". Right now, some people go for a 9mm in a really small gun just because they view the 32 ACP and 380 as not good enough. For the market that wants smaller guns (this is where the 380 is selling strong), this new round provides a "more optimized" combination of power and capacity that should be viewed as "good enough" by a much greater percentage of gun buyers.

A lot of 380s and similar sized 9mm will still sell and sales of this new round will pale in comparison. However, if the right guns come out and are given the fair consideration by reviewers, the new guns will sell to some. For the small carry gun crowd, many who do go with this new choice will find it very capable of satisfying their desires.

I would say that ammo cost and availability concerns have a potential to slow down adoption of this new round as much as anything. I was surprised at how well the supply chain has avoided this issue with the 350 Legend so far.

It is perfectly ok for you to look at it and decide it is not what you wanted or hoped for. That does not necessarily mean that the round is ill suited for its intended purpose.

 

[starling]

Starling, the way I read the marketing, the 30 Super Carry is being sold more as a 32 ACP (very small gun capable) and 380 (more power and capacity for similar sized guns) "replacement". Right now, some people go for a 9mm in a really small gun just because they view the 32 ACP and 380 as not good enough. For the market that wants smaller guns (this is where the 380 is selling strong), this new round provides a "more optimized" combination of power and capacity that should be viewed as "good enough" by a much greater percentage of gun buyers.

A lot of 380s and similar sized 9mm will still sell and sales of this new round will pale in comparison. However, if the right guns come out and are given the fair consideration by reviewers, the new guns will sell to some. For the small carry gun crowd, many who do go with this new choice will find it very capable of satisfying their desires.

I would say that ammo cost and availability concerns have a potential to slow down adoption of this new round as much as anything. I was surprised at how well the supply chain has avoided this issue with the 350 Legend so far.

It is perfectly ok for you to look at it and decide it is not what you wanted or hoped for. That does not necessarily mean that the round is ill suited for its intended purpose.

Recoil is comparable to 9mm. The small 380s are not strong enough to handle this round. Besides the fact that its too long and wont fit in a short action of a pocket auto. "Good Enough" is subjective. Federal should rename it to "30 Good Enough Super.. Maybe". Personally I would call it the ".30 Cabbage Shredder" and Get Gallagher or Carrot Top to endorce it. If Federal is just going to go stupid they might as well take it all the way.

Hopefully Federal puts out some more videos about how non ideal 9mm is for self defense though while trying to match its performance. Maybe shoot some buckets of ice cream or marshmellows next time to sell it.

No its not what I wanted or hoped for. Somebody needs to get fired over this nonsense. A primer fired 22WMR makes more sense than this. If Federal had confidence they wouldnt be playing this "9mm is a LE/Military cartridge" game like they are. The round would sell itself based on performance like the 40s&w, 357sig, 10mm, 50AE etc. Those rounds had staying power they could do things other rounds couldnt.

 

[P Flados]

My biggest initial concern about the new round was about excessive muzzle blast given the 50 ksi chamber pressure and my experience with the 327. However, even though the round has a high chamber pressure, my Quickload evaluation showed a similar muzzle pressure to the 9mm.

The next thing you know, the American Rifleman article comes out and includes "In terms of shooting experience, the new round is said to create perceived recoil similar to an equivalent-weight 9 mm Luger load and muzzle flash similar to 9 mm Luger." It seems they are already ahead of the game in addressing the concerns folks will have about muzzle blast.

 

[JohnKSa]

If they can make more money by signing onto this "weapons of war" .... "assault pistols" type propoganda then they will.

First of all, the video is an ad--it's marketing. If you want to say that marketing is propaganda, I suppose that's hard to argue against. However, there's really nothing in it that hints at political ends. Dissecting it in search of a political/legal motive seems unwarranted.

That said, to address your comments:

1. The video isn't saying that the 9mm is bad, only that it wasn't originally designed for civilian self-defense.

2. The video says nothing about "assault pistols" or "weapons of war" nor is it focusing only in the military use of the cartridges they want the 30 Super to compete with. They comment about LE use of other cartridges too--the point of the video is clearly to play up the fact that this cartridge was a ground-up civilian self-defense cartridge. Just like one would expect any advertisement to play up what the makers consider the strength of the product to be.

3. if the focus were really trying to get away from the 9mm because it's a military cartridge, there's no need to come up with a new cartridge to do that. The 9x21 already exists and will work in any 9x19mm pistol with just a barrel switch--or even after the existing barrel's chamber is reamed a bit longer. It was designed for use in countries that specifically ban military cartridge use. And we already have other self-defense cartridges that couldn't be said to be developed for military purposes that aren't in common LE or military use that would fill the bill.

4. The idea that a push towards legally limiting the use of the most popular centerfire handgun cartridge in the U.S. would come from ammunition manufacturers seems a bit far-fetched. Actually, it seems a LOT far-fetched. In fact, "a LOT" doesn't quite fit. Maybe astronomically far-fetched?

 

[Old_Grouch]

Recoil is comparable to 9mm. The small 380s are not strong enough to handle this round. Besides the fact that its too long and wont fit in a short action of a pocket auto.

Absolutely right. Even if it would fit in the magazine of an LCP or P238 ejecting a 21mm case through an ejection port sized for a 17mm case would be problematic.

 

[starling]

First of all, the video is an ad--it's marketing. If you want to say that marketing is propaganda, I suppose that's hard to argue against. However, there's really nothing in it that hints at political ends. Dissecting it in search of a political/legal motive seems unwarranted.

That said, to address your comments:

1. The video isn't saying that the 9mm is bad, only that it wasn't originally designed for civilian self-defense.

2. The video says nothing about "assault pistols" or "weapons of war" nor is it focusing only in the military use of the cartridges they want the 30 Super to compete with. They comment about LE use of other cartridges too--the point of the video is clearly to play up the fact that this cartridge was a ground-up civilian self-defense cartridge. Just like one would expect any advertisement to play up what the makers consider the strength of the product to be.

3. if the focus were really trying to get away from the 9mm because it's a military cartridge, there's no need to come up with a new cartridge to do that. The 9x21 already exists and will work in any 9x19mm pistol with just a barrel switch--or even after the existing barrel's chamber is reamed a bit longer. It was designed for use in countries that specifically ban military cartridge use. And we already have other self-defense cartridges that couldn't be said to be developed for military purposes that aren't in common LE or military use that would fill the bill.

4. The idea that a push towards legally limiting the use of the most popular centerfire handgun cartridge in the U.S. would come from ammunition manufacturers seems a bit far-fetched. Actually, it seems a LOT far-fetched. In fact, "a LOT" doesn't quite fit. Maybe astronomically far-fetched?

I would encourage you to reread current and past gun control legislation they are pushing towards. Weapons of War and Assault pistols is their terminolgy not mine. It is being aimed at common firearms in the populace that use military calibers.

Careful with this blind trust of Ammunition manufacturers. That will come back to bite you. They may not start a ammunition limiting push but they will be forced to play along.

 

[Hasaf]

Recoil is comparable to 9mm. The small 380s are not strong enough to handle this round. Besides the fact that it's too long and won't fit in a short action of a pocket auto.

First off, I am not entirely sold on this new round. It seems to be tailor-made for people in countries that forbid "military" calibres. That said, I question your position that the small 380 pistols are not strong enough. I say this because of the popularity of the single actin pocket autos. Many of these pistols have been easily adapted to 9mm by stretching the magazine. This indicates that the locking systems are adequate. Yes, I am discounting blowback 380s'. However, there are very few of those being introduced to the market.

Myself, I agree with the general tone, I would rather have seen a bigger move toward 32naa. Someone mentioned that all one has to do for 32naa is to replace the barrel and recoil spring. That said, those parts are not available. I have looked.

 

[starling]

Absolutely right. Even if it would fit in the magazine of an LCP or P238 ejecting a 21mm case through an ejection port sized for a 17mm case would be problematic.

Honeslty .... you would probably have to design it around a rotating barrel and get the bore access incredibly low to deal with the snap. I dont think you could do it without an new hodge podge design plucking from other pistols. Not with this cartridge anyways.

They should have just extended the 32acp and got rid of the rim to start. Hot load it... double stack it.... get the penetration up a little with defensive loads and be done. A hicap hot 32acp type that fits into your pocket and snaps less than the 380.

Whats funny.....I was behind this a few days ago guys. This... good enough... stuff is getting silly. Not from here just from all over through the years on cartridges. 9mm silvertip was once "good enough". Some situations 25acp is good enough. As far as I am concerned 9mm isnt really good enough. A lot of it wont penetrate a dog skull which is a bigger threat than a person wether people realize it or not. Everyone says 9mm over 40 because its good enough. Now its 30 over 9mm.... good enough. Is 30 good enough over 40s&w? Where does it end.... 25super that holds 18 rounds. Maybe full auto BB guns. Next thing you know you have UK gun laws and airguns are limited in power.

I encourage everyone to get on the newly produced Automag waiting list and buy yourself a 50AE Desert Eagle. I truely believe those are good enough.

 

[JohnKSa]

I would encourage you to reread current and past gun control legislation they are pushing towards.

They as in ammunition manufacturers? No. Just no. There is NO current or past gun control pushed by ammunition manufacturers. If you want to respond to this with anything other than tinfoil hattery, provide the evidence of a U.S. ammunition manufacturer pushing current or past gun control legislation.

Weapons of War and Assault pistols is their terminolgy not mine.

You applied it to this video where it does not appear.

It is being aimed at common firearms in the populace that use military calibers.

Perhaps, but not by any ammunition manufacturers. If you want to respond to this with anything other than tinfoil hattery, provide the evidence of U.S. ammunition manufacturer using these terms against the populace that uses military calibers.

Careful with this blind trust of Ammunition manufacturers.

Because people don't agree with your conspiracy theory they have blind trust? Ridiculous. That's the theme song of every conspiracist in the world.

They may not start a ammunition limiting push but they will be forced to play along.

Clearly they will not start a push since it would be terribly damaging to them. As to whether they would be forced to play along--if a law is passed, naturally they will be forced to comply--as would we all, short of armed revolution. That has nothing to do with whether we should be worried that they are going to start restricting "military" calibers or support such restrictions.

Where does it end....

It doesn't. Ammunition manufacturers, just like any manufacturers, are constantly trying to keep customers interested by introducing new products.

 

[starling]

First off, I am not entirely sold on this new round. It seems to be tailor-made for people in countries that forbid "military" calibres. That said, I question your position that the small 380 pistols are not strong enough. I say this because of the popularity of the single actin pocket autos. Many of these pistols have been easily adapted to 9mm by stretching the magazine. This indicates that the locking systems are adequate. Yes, I am discounting blowback 380s'. However, there are very few of those being introduced to the market.

Myself, I agree with the general tone, I would rather have seen a bigger move toward 32naa. Someone mentioned that all one has to do for 32naa is to replace the barrel and recoil spring. That said, those parts are not available. I have looked.

Some of them might be strong enough in the short term... long term they shoot themselves apart. Gotta have a little more mass and re-enforcment on the slide. You also have to lengthen the action and somehow slow down the slide speed. Its really kind of a engineering wonder Kelgren was able to make the whole 32/380 work in a 25acp size pistol. Browning would be proud. 9mm is a pretty major step up though. Most of those SUB-SUB compact 9mms border on dangerous. 9mm Diamondback DB9s are a little scary when you break them down to inspect. 380 Diamondbacks I dont have a problem with.

 

[TTv2]

First off, I am not entirely sold on this new round. It seems to be tailor-made for people in countries that forbid "military" calibres. That said, I question your position that the small 380 pistols are not strong enough. I say this because of the popularity of the single actin pocket autos. Many of these pistols have been easily adapted to 9mm by stretching the magazine. This indicates that the locking systems are adequate. Yes, I am discounting blowback 380s'. However, there are very few of those being introduced to the market.

Myself, I agree with the general tone, I would rather have seen a bigger move toward 32naa. Someone mentioned that all one has to do for 32naa is to replace the barrel and recoil spring. That said, those parts are not available. I have looked.

That was probably me and I have emailed Ruger about making both a .32 ACP and .32 NAA version of the LCP and specifically stated the ease of doing the .32 NAA. Of course I don't expect Ruger to do a .32 NAA because the demand is so low due to ignorance of the cartridge's existence, heck not even people who work at Ruger likely know it exists. All I can do in the meantime is get on my soapbox and preach words that fall on deaf ears.

I too am not sold on this .30 Super and I'm as big a proponent of .32 as you'll find. The only hope I have is if this .30 Super takes off it will spur development and manufacturing of .312 and .313 diameter bullets that I can adapt in the .327 when I reload for that.

 

[Drail]

No matter how far you push a .30 or .32 cartridge there are always going to be hundreds of much better cartridges and guns available. If you can buy a proven .38 Super then why mess around with .30 or .32s?

 

[Viper1357]

No matter how far you push a .30 or .32 cartridge there are always going to be hundreds of much better cartridges and guns available. If you can buy a proven .38 Super then why mess around with .30 or .32s?

The oldest reason in the world, “because they can”.

 

[cfullgraf]

I’m convinced with all this back an forth discussion.

I got to have a 30 Super Carry, maybe two if I find a reasonably priced 1911.

I’ll add my 2 cents to the discussion, I’d rather have straight walled cases in my semi-auto guns. I load and shoot two bottle neck rounds in various pistols, 38/45 Clerke and 357 Sig. Both are good rounds.

But for protection, I’d rather have a few large diameter, heavy, slow moving bullets or a bunch of smaller diameter fast movers.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you can buy a proven .38 Super

But you can't. Fewer and fewer makers offer .38 Super and nobody I know of makes a subcompact hideout pistol for it.

 

[Terry G]

Why not just make a compact that fires the 7,62X25 MM? Heck of a cartridge.

 

[clone]

I will buy one in a compact 9mm sized carry
equivalent. I'm think sr30c with a 20 or so round mag.

I'm also with ttv2, as a handloader the bullets and the possibility of molds for my other 32's are welcome.

I'm all in. The conspiracy bent folks are intertaining though.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why not just make a compact that fires the 7,62X25 MM? Heck of a cartridge.

Same reason as always, nobody sees enough market to be worth tooling up for an all new extra long action.

 

[mavracer]

To me it's interesting but I'm not interested.
IMHO it'd be a great option for someone like my father who uses Hornady Critical Defense 115gr 9mm in a LC9 because the recoil with 124+p or 147 is a bit much.