Why no luck for M16 100rd Beta Drums in the military?

[wideym]

In 04-05 there was a shortage of MGs and linked ammo in country. When a saw or a 240 is deadlined or destroyed it took months to replace. Having a fullauto m4 with a drum was a combat multiplier. My chain of command saw it, tried it out and liked it. It took out insurgents and thats what counts. If the barrel was worn more than usual, who cares, uncle sam can replace barrels easer that soldiers.

Here are the facts: 1) I used a beta mag.
2) It did not jam.
3) I'm still alive.

 

[MisterPX]

Wideym, what kind of maintenance did you do to the beta? Use the graphite all the time, etc.

 

[wideym]

When not in use I put it back in the pouch. As far as cleaning, every two weeks I would unload it inspect,dust off, lightly lube with graphite. Its not as dusty in Bagdad than the rual parts of Iraq.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It's called controlled fire. You don't need a 100 round magazine. The M4 is select fire three round burst. The Army has Squad Automatic Weapons that fire the 5.56 rounds when they need them so what's the use of having the 100 rounder for?

Wow, somebody in the military saying soldiers in the field don't need so much firepower. That is strange. Well, it is simple really, as to why soldiers potentially could use 100 round mags. There isn't always a guy with a SAW around. Why? Because the guy with the saw may be down. The SAW may be down. The squad may have split up. The guy with the SAW may have to be firing in a direction opposite from where somebody else also needs the firepower. A SAW is a bigger and heavier gun, so getting more firepower out of a smaller platform that is more easily transported is a good thing. On top of that, a 100 round mag means not having to reload as often during a fight. You get 33 3 round bursts instead of 10.

 

[benEzra]

For a rifle, I'd rather just tape mags together. That's what I do with my AK mags. I get 60rds with one reload in between, and the reload is extremely fast.

With polymer mags and such, you can tape 3 mags together for 120rds and still be lighter or equal in weight with a drum.

Keep in mind that the feed lips of AR mags are way thinner than those of AK mags; look at an AR mag and an AK mag side by side sometime (there is just no comparison). AK mags are tough enough to take a few knocks and not get bent, but carrying an AR with a second mag jungle-clipped upside down to the first one is just asking for bent feed lips and an unusable mag when you need it, IMO.

FWIW, for me and the AK platform, I can reload about 3x faster from a magazine holder on my person than I could using any sort of "jungle clip" setup. If a reload is required, my personal preference is to have it on my belt rather than hanging upside-down on the rifle.

 

[Lucky]

This is good, no irrational hatreds just more facts, great read this thread.

I've also heard that the problem with belts and packs is what happens after your 100 rounds are fired. You first have to load a belt into the pack, then load the belt. And if you have a bunch of packs, it's still slower than a magazine change.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

DoubleNaughtSpy Quoted:

Wow, somebody in the military saying soldiers in the field don't need so much firepower. That is strange. Well, it is simple really, as to why soldiers potentially could use 100 round mags. There isn't always a guy with a SAW around. Why? Because the guy with the saw may be down. The SAW may be down. The squad may have split up. The guy with the SAW may have to be firing in a direction opposite from where somebody else also needs the firepower. A SAW is a bigger and heavier gun, so getting more firepower out of a smaller platform that is more easily transported is a good thing. On top of that, a 100 round mag means not having to reload as often during a fight. You get 33 3 round bursts instead of 10.

You have plenty of firepower. Switch the magazine in 2 seconds. Soldiers carry 210 rounds of ammunition, that's 7 30 round magazines. If you are rambo and go at it alone then it is a different story. The M4 Platform with the magazine catch can't stand the rigors of daily abuse (if it were to be used deserves to be tested first).
Controlled fire is accurate fire. Controlled fire is firepower. Shooting to be shooting is not necessary firepower.
Armchair quarterbacking from the internet never fails to amaze me. DNS Thanks for the raise this January.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Double Naught Spy Quote:It's called controlled fire. You don't need a 100 round magazine. The M4 is select fire three round burst. The Army has Squad Automatic Weapons that fire the 5.56 rounds when they need them so what's the use of having the 100 rounder for?

Wow, somebody in the military saying soldiers in the field don't need so much firepower. That is strange. Well, it is simple really, as to why soldiers potentially could use 100 round mags. There isn't always a guy with a SAW around. Why? Because the guy with the saw may be down. The SAW may be down. The squad may have split up. The guy with the SAW may have to be firing in a direction opposite from where somebody else also needs the firepower. A SAW is a bigger and heavier gun, so getting more firepower out of a smaller platform that is more easily transported is a good thing. On top of that, a 100 round mag means not having to reload as often during a fight. You get 33 3 round bursts instead of 10.

You haven't ran around too much out here with full combat load and 25lbs of armor plate in your flak in 125+ degree weather have you? Most engagements out here nowadays you can get by on 1 30 rnd mag. If you are going to need a bunch of ammo you will know ahead of time plus you have plenty in your truck. I only carry 2 spare 30s when I'm out of the truck, with a 20 rnd mag loaded. My pistol has 3 spare mags and I usually have a frag just "incase".

Lucky This is good, no irrational hatreds just more facts, great read this thread.

I've also heard that the problem with belts and packs is what happens after your 100 rounds are fired. You first have to load a belt into the pack, then load the belt. And if you have a bunch of packs, it's still slower than a magazine change.

Wrong. Ammo comes in 200rnd drums. We also have the 100rd "assault packs". What you do is you break down a 200rnd drum into 2 assualt packs, mount one on the gun stick one in your pocket and then you normally carry 2x200rnd drums in your pouches. Like I posted above....thats a full combat load...most guys just carry a spare 100rnd pack when dismounted.

 

[trueblue1776]

25lbs of armor plate in your flak

That's only when I'm jousting by horseback.

Buy some 2 lb weighted gloves from a fitness store, wear them for 8 hours and see how tired you get.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You haven't ran around too much out here with full combat load and 25lbs of armor plate in your flak in 125+ degree weather have you? Most engagements out here nowadays you can get by on 1 30 rnd mag. If you are going to need a bunch of ammo you will know ahead of time plus you have plenty in your truck. I only carry 2 spare 30s when I'm out of the truck, with a 20 rnd mag loaded. My pistol has 3 spare mags and I usually have a frag just "incase".

This post very accurately describes what it's like over here right now. I think w/ the new side plates our IBAs are around 40 or 50 pounds right now. And it's crazy hot. Plus, most of the shooting is done by 240s or 50 cals off the trucks, not w/ personal weapons. And 25mm off the Bradleys, if you are lucky enough to be in mech unit.

Like a number of people have already pointed out there really is no need for more rounds in the M4 at a given time. If you need to shoot something, 30 rounders plus the support from SAWs, etc and your vehicle mounted weapons are perfectly capable of getting the job done. Frankly, I've only seen one guy in our battalion even bother to clip two mags together.

For a bulky, heavy casualty producing weapon we have SAWs, plus heavier stuff. The M4 w/ 30 rounders provides rifleman w/ an accurate weapon w/ plenty of firepower. Sure a weapon w/ 100 rounds would be great, but the increase in weight and awkwardness really isn't justified by the increased capacity. There just isn't any need for it given how effective 30 rounders already are.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You have plenty of firepower. Switch the magazine in 2 seconds. Soldiers carry 210 rounds of ammunition, that's 7 30 round magazines. If you are rambo and go at it alone then it is a different story. The M4 Platform with the magazine catch can't stand the rigors of daily abuse (if it were to be used deserves to be tested first).
Controlled fire is accurate fire. Controlled fire is firepower. Shooting to be shooting is not necessary firepower.
Armchair quarterbacking from the internet never fails to amaze me. DNS Thanks for the raise this January.

Okay, well I have yet to see those 2 second mag changes you are talking about. The soldiers I have watched take much longer, especially if they are keeping their empty mags. As for quarterbacking, as I recall, you haven't been in battle either. You were a mechanic. So that makes you a quarterback as well. And that is just what you were doing when you claimed the guy with the SAW would always be right there.

You haven't ran around too much out here with full combat load and 25lbs of armor plate in your flak in 125+ degree weather have you? Most engagements out here nowadays you can get by on 1 30 rnd mag. If you are going to need a bunch of ammo you will know ahead of time plus you have plenty in your truck. I only carry 2 spare 30s when I'm out of the truck, with a 20 rnd mag loaded.

Right, I am not there. I am glad to know your engagements are much shorter now. I have watched several soldier's clips on You Tube and such where I guess earlier on you guys were in more prolonged fights and soldiers were not in the truck, doing the whole off hand searching pockets routine trying to find any more mags still on their person.

 

[RobTzu]

Like most things in the military, I just wish it was an option. They are times and places where I would have wanted one of those. There are also times and places where I would not have wanted my body armor. Most of these descions are made higher up. The company level on down really has no authority to make descions, and I want that to change. Everything is a trade off. Those drums have advantages and dis-advantages that should be wieghed by the platoon sargeant at worst and individual soldier at best.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Okay, well I have yet to see those 2 second mag changes you are talking about. The soldiers I have watched take much longer, especially if they are keeping their empty mags.

Really fast mag changes are a bit overly optimistic if using bone stock army pouches and doing some of the things the Powers the Be in the Big Army push real hard (like putting empty mags back in mag pouches). I think the standard Big Army is pushing with their new Short Range Marksmanship course is four second mag changes (including putting mag back in mag pouch).

Get over the conventionalist thinking and mag changes can be much faster. Start with better set up kit. An open topped ready mag pouch (I like the Tactical Tailor models with shock cord retainers) or kydex clip on your gun belt improves on basic kit hugely. Either forget about the empty mag (mags are cheap, troops' lives less so) or get a big dump pouch on your belt.

And then drill doing mag changes exactly the way you plan to do them, standing, kneeling, crouched, prone, whatever. That's really the key. Practice the drill and two seconds is easy.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I've had rounds shot at me into my compound. I have slept in a mine field in the first day of deploying into Bosnia. I have been (what I thought)laser traced at night at a convoy stop by a sniper at night and prayed to God at that instant to please let me go home and raise my two children. I have seen more wounded and suffering than you will ever know. War torn and ravaged areas. I have seen people one day only to know that they were dead the next. I have watched soldiers go crazy. I have heard explosions across the wire, more Death. I have seen more human tragedy then you would ever want to ever see. I have turned wrenches getting vehicles running in 15 degree weather on frozen solid ground with my fingers turing black. I have also worked in 130 degree heat doing the same thing 24/7 to exhaustion. Worked in the Rain. Turned wrenches with my back laying in the mud so those other soldiers could do their mission. I have been in a compound with undetected mines in that compound for the better part of a year only to find out much later that there were mines dicsovered on that compound. I thank God it didn't get ugly. I put myself in that situation by joining the Army, I signed the dotted line. Uncle Sam owned me for 20 years to do his bidding.

 

[trueblue1776]

Uncle Sam owned me for 20 years to do his bidding.

I preferred to think of it as a "lease".

 

[jpwilly]

Here's a good video of those beta mags in action

 

[Andrewsky]

I had the opportunity to go shooting with a SWAT team member last week. I even got to fire a magazine from his M4A1 on full auto.

I held his tactical vest that had 2 pouches on it and a ceramic front plate. It was extremely heavy (and I'm 6'2", 175 lbs)

Excuse me, I'm going to totally armchair QB this next part. I have no fighting or military or police experience, but I imagine if I was in Iraq, my load-out would be something like this:

Rifle
4 extra rifle magazines
Pistol
2 extra pistol magazines
Handheld Radio
1 Frag grenade
1 fixed-blade knife
1 set of flex cuffs
1 flashlight
1 1 quart canteen
Night Vision Goggles
Other stuff like clothing, flak vest, helmet, goggles, chapstick, kleenex, etc, specialty equipment like a rocket or shotgun

I can't imagine carrying more than that.

BTW, seems to me that a 30 round magazine from an M4 lasts forever. Plus you'd have teammates to cover you during mag changes.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Excuse me, I'm going to totally armchair QB this next part. I have no fighting or military or police experience, but I imagine if I was in Iraq, my load-out would be something like this:

Rifle
6extra rifle magazines
Pistol
3 extra pistol magazines
Handheld Radio
1 Frag grenadeplus a smoke or two
1 fixed-blade knife
1 set of flex cuffs
1 flashlight
1 1 quart canteen3l camel back, that 1qt will be gone the first 30 minutes
Night Vision Goggles
Other stuff like clothing, flak vest, helmet, goggles, chapstick, kleenex, etc, specialty equipment like a rocket or shotgun
The Flak Jacket will have four SAPI plates front,back& sides (about25lbs in JUST the plates
I can't imagine carrying more than that.

BTW, seems to me that a 30 round magazine from an M4 lasts forever. Plus you'd have teammates to cover you during mag changes.

I used REDto give you a more accurate idea of whats carried out here.

 

[trueblue1776]

Jeremy-
Thanks for reminding me why I never went army! I didn't serve with a standard infantry unit, I carried less than half of the things on that list.

Just for the record, I never saw anything close to heavy combat, just observation/interdiction. If we saw a concentration of meanies, we just called in the birds to check it out.

I still can't see any purpose for it other than a stationary gunner (AKA "death wish") or a drive by shooter in a Humvee. Cheers to the guys that use them in real life, they are just to humongous for me, or anybody I ever served with.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Jeremy2171,

Don't forget the Improved First Aid Kit (IFAK). For those of you who haven't seen them, the IFAK is a pouch about the size of two thick paperbacks. It has a bunch of immediate use kind of medical supplies. Tourniquet, pressure dressing, gauze, etc.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Yup, thats about the only thing I have on my Flak. Much easier to get out of the vehicle without all the crap hanging off of it.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Man I hated getting in and out of a Hummwv wearing..
Kevlar
Gas mask
Flak Vest
Load Bearing Equipment
2 Quart Canteens
M16 + 210 rounds
Me Over 6' and weighing in at 225.
You can't feel the seat belt when you try to get out and you forget every time.:banghead:

 

[Andrewsky]

Jeremy, thank you very much. That was very informative.

 

[sacp81170a]

Man I hated getting in and out of a Hummwv wearing..
Kevlar
Gas mask
Flak Vest
Load Bearing Equipment
2 Quart Canteens
M16 + 210 rounds
Me Over 6' and weighing in at 225.

I hear that. It's even worse at 40 below with a 50 mph wind, parka, bunny pants, mukluks, long underwear and your radio. You won't run out of water, it'll just freeze before you can drink it!

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I sometimes wonder about those light infantry guys. Seen em walking loaded down, I mean loaded. There was nothing light about those poor saps.