Why no small viable DA revolver?

[AirForceShooter]

Look for the snubby .327 mags.
Light with six rounds in a J frame sized gun.
You can shoot: 327, 32 mag. 32 long. 32 short.


The 327 mag stacks up quite nicely alongside the 357 mag.

It's an amazing all around revolver

AFS

 

[BSA1]

O.A.,

Having seen my fair share of gunshot wounds I would choose Peppermace and a stun device over the 32 S&W and 32 Long.

Simply put neither cartridge is even remotely close to bring adequate for self/defense. They might present a psychological deterrence but a airsoft gun would do the same w/o the need of a conceal carry permit.

Reloading these mouse cartridges does not gain you anything. The 32 S&W does not have enough case capacity and the 32 Long will not push a JHP fast enough to expand. If you are bound and determined to choose to handicap your life a full wad cutter seated in the 32 Long would be the best poor choice. At least it will cut a round hole.

It is a serious lack of judgement to assume someone is going to break off their attack just because they are shot. There are many folks that when attacked fight rather than running away. I am the biggest coward on the Internet and will walk, no run, away from trouble but being shot is a game changer.

What does Chicago have to do with this discussion?

 

[Onward Allusion]

I might just be crazy enough to invest in a small CNC machine and make myself one just to prove a point. However, steep learning curve = time...

 

[Sam1911]

OA, do you consider the Taurs M380 to be close enough to what you're asking for? If not, why not? And by how much is it "not close enough?"



And why aren't they selling a million of them?
(I think you could insert ".327" into those questions, too, if you're inclined.)

 

[Zaydok Allen]

This discussion is no different than when someone asks about using .22lr for SD. There are better options, especially given the sensory dulling effects of drugs that many criminals seem to enjoy, but a 32 S&W or a Long is still a deadly weapon with good shooting. And if your living situation tells you "That's all the gun you need." Then I hope you find one to your liking.

Having seen my fair share of gunshot wounds I would choose Peppermace and a stun device over the 32 S&W and 32 Long.

While I have never seen a gunshot wound, I personally feel that the above statement is..... ummmm, well.... pretty silly. Sorry man. I mean no disrespect, but I disagree totally. If someone told me I had a choice of pepper spraying, tazing, or getting shot with any firearm, I would choose the pepperspray or stun device. I'm not bulletproof, and I personally would rather deal with the potential negative repercussions of the first two, rather than the possibility of uncontrolled bleeding and/or internal organ piercing. Just curious, are you a doctor, nurse, or EMT? I assume so given your comment.

If the market demands it, it will be built by someone. If not, it will be a pipe dream, or a relic of the past.

Hey OA, many people have brought up NAA mini revolvers. Have you considered pitching the idea to them? They may be looking for a big brother concept to go with their rimfire guns, and they make cool stuff. Just a thought. Maybe you could write up a proposal and email them about it.

 

[mavracer]

I've thought many times about getting 32s, I always talk myself out of it quickly.

 

[jimbo555]

Back in the old days the 32s&w long and 32colt new police were considered more effective than the 32acp. The s&w chiefs special killed the old I-frame but a little airweight I-frame 6 shot 32 would be a easy carrying revolver if they made one!

 

[Onward Allusion]

Sam -

At 15.5 oz, the Taurus is about 5 oz too heavy. It is also only 5 shots of .380. It's really no advantage compared to the J-Frames, aside from the ammo availability. I think it is a tiny bit shorter, though.

The closest thing I've found that is fairly modern was the S&W Airlite 331-2. 10.5 oz unloaded and holding 6 shouts of 32 H&R mag. Aside from the +1 factor, there is really no other advantage of the 331-2 compared to a standard Airlite or Airweight J-Frame.

This might be the same argument for the .327 Fed Mag. Heck, I got 2 of the Taurus 327 snubs. I like 'em but it seems that not many did. These days those snubs are going for $500 to $600. I picked mine up for $229 a piece at a fire sale. Too bad they stopped making 'em 'cause if Taurus would have waited it out, they would have seen the market. New Rugers in 327 are going for $900 to $1,000. Those are the 3" models, too. It took years, but some people are finally seeing the advantage of the 327 cartridge. 6 or 7 327's are better than 5 38's or 357's.

Why am I so keen on the 32 platform? Well, a gun chambered in 327 Fed Mag can shoot 32 S&W, 32 S&W L, 32 H&R, 327 Fed Mag, AND .32 ACP. That and it shoots 6.

 

[Onward Allusion]

460Kodiak
<SNIP>
If the market demands it, it will be built by someone. If not, it will be a pipe dream, or a relic of the past.

Hey OA, many people have brought up NAA mini revolvers. Have you considered pitching the idea to them? They may be looking for a big brother concept to go with their rimfire guns, and they make cool stuff. Just a thought. Maybe you could write up a proposal and email them about it.

Well, this country was built on a pipe dream.

I have thought of dropping NAA a line. From my understanding, they will produce special runs of one of their models. However, this would be a completely different direction and I have heard that their primary focus will always be single action highly concealable last ditch guns.

A couple of thoughts... People want; capacity, "knock down power" (yeah yeah no such thing), and reliability all in a small concealable light weight package. How about a 8 round J-Frame sized revolver in +P+ 25 ACP?

Or, wait . . . a 10 round K-Frame sized revolver in +P+ 25 ACP for HD?
_________

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I shoot my carry guns, and nothing smaller than a Colt Detective Special is comfortable to shoot with full-charge .38 specials -- and I have a Tyler T-Grip on that gun.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

If ammo was more readily available, I'd buy a 10 shot N-frame in 327 fed mag if one was made. That would be quite a blaster, and with a 5 inch bbl, it would have some power for home defense, and as a woods gun.

Well, a gun chambered in 327 Fed Mag can shoot 32 S&W, 32 S&W L, 32 H&R, 327 Fed Mag, AND .32 ACP. That and it shoots 6.

That's exactly why I love revolvers in general and really like the 460mag. Since you can shoot ...... well you know. I actually was going to buy a SP101 in 327 mag as my first handgun, but when I went and looked at the ammo shelf and saw one box of 327 mag and one box of 32 H&R mag, and the 200 or so boxes of assorted .357's and 38's, I decided to go that route. I don't regret it, but I do think it is a shame the 327 never really took off. It was already dwindling when I got into shooting.

 

[BSA1]

460Kodiak,

If you have ever been Peppermaced or Tazed then you know the effect they on most people,

Peppermace, the good stuff with 10% O.C., on most people causes intense burning and tearing in the eyes and sinuses. The resulting blindness gives the potential victim plenty of opportunity to flee or do a #6 on the attacker. There is a small minority of people that Peppermace will not affect along with people with mental issues or on certain drugs like p c. p. I have been involved in 2 or 3 such incidents in 30+ years. O.C. is very easy to use by young and old, disabled, weak alike with very little training. Depending on weather conditions it is effective at 7 yds.

Stun devices for civilians are for CQB. It typically lasts at least 8 seconds with recovery taking longer. I have yet to see someone that was not disabled. Again enough time to flee or do a #6.

Contrast that to shooting a small 32 S&W or Long. Shot placement is EVERYTHING which means training and a lot of practice on the range. It is also a very short range gun. The closer the distance the more I want the attacker to stop RIGHT NOW!

We are in the golden age of self-defense guns and very effective self-defense ammunition within the budget of almost all folks.

Some things really do deserve to be retired and as a conversation piece or a range toy such as SASS matcthes.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Ok, I see your point BSA1, and I withdraw my "silly" comment. So your point is that while the 32 S&W and 32 long have more potential for lethality, pepper spray and stun devices have greater potential for faster incapacitation of an attacker. Which of course, is the point of self defense. Not to end life.

And I agree with retirement of the cartridges for SD purposes. Way better options. But I still maintain a person should carry what they're comfortable with. It may not be a good decision in other's eyes, and that's ok because ultimately, it's a personal choice.

This is an interesting thread.

 

[Old Fuff]

OA, do you consider the Taurs M380 to be close enough to what you're asking for? If not, why not? And by how much is it "not close enough?"

In my view we should be looking at a hand ejector revolver that is substantially smaller then the S&W J-frame. Since it is available in a number of versions from Smith & Wesson, as well as similar sized examples from Taurus and Ruger, further improvement in those platforms is unlikely. Those that are available in .32 caliber also have 6-shot cylinders. If that is what is wanted availability is not a serious roadblock.

Looking backwards at a time period running from the late 1890’s to about 1937 S&W, Iver Johnson and Harrington Richardson made smaller 5-shot top-break’s chambered in .32 S&W, and they literally sold by the hundreds-of-thousands. The last of the IJ snubbies were sold to the U.S. Army’s O.S.S. who used some of them as hide-out guns issued to agents who were dropped behind German lines in Europe. While the .32 cartridge they were chambered for unquestionably left something to be desired, the O.S.S. was obviously satisfied that they would do the job if that became necessary.

As I pointed out before, if you pick up and handle a S&W .32 Safety Hammerless with a barrel length as short as 1 ¾ inches you will quickly see that what you are holding is in terms of size is only slightly larger then many of the “baby” .25 pistols, and the 5 (not 6) shot cylinder is not much wider then a pistol’s slide.

Late production revolvers of this kind are available on the used market that usually feature collectables. The best can still be used, but a new hand ejector of about the same size, perhaps chambered to use a combination of moon clips and .32 ACP rounds would be – in my opinion – a welcome addition to what is already available.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Old Fluff -

You mean like these? The pic is of a restored H&R Bicycle Top Break in 32 S&W compared to a Colt 1908 Vest Pocket 25 ACP; both over a One Dollar bill for perspective.

I seriously believe that there is a market for something like this old H&R - - - BUT made from modern metals, chambered in high pressure +P+ 25 ACP or +P 32 ACP and maybe 10% to 15% smaller and lighter.

The key factors are reliability, simplicity of DA, and a bit more "omph" than a 22LR. Hey, even if there isn't a market - it's an interesting discussion.

 

[rswartsell]

I think it is a highly questionable assumption that there are a significant number of revolver carriers that desire something smaller/lighter than a lightweight J frame,

I'm a revolver carrier that stopped at the Colt DS. Lightweight J frames are a step too far!

 

[BSA1]

You mean like these? The pic is of a restored H&R Bicycle Top Break in 32 S&W compared to a Colt 1908 Vest Pocket 25 ACP; both over a One Dollar bill for perspective.

I seriously believe that there is a market for something like this old H&R - - - BUT made from modern metals, chambered in high pressure +P+ 25 ACP or +P 32 ACP and maybe 10% to 15% smaller and lighter.

The key factors are reliability, simplicity of DA, and a bit more "omph" than a 22LR. Hey, even if there isn't a market - it's an interesting discussion.

O.A.,

In previous threads you have complained about the recoil of larger calibers, the lack of stopping power with the 22 LR while citing the need for deep concealment when working on your office.

Your desire for "high pressure +P+ 25 ACP or +P 32 ACP and maybe 10% to 15% smaller and lighter" will create exactly the factors you are seeking to avoid such as greater recoil not to mention the difficulty in gripping and controlling mini gun with the increased recoil.

There are already guns on the market that meet your criteria.

The first are used Smith & Wesson top break revolvers in 32 S&W. They are as small as is practical for a centerfire revolver. I don't not believe a +P+ 25 acp is even possible.

The second is the excellent Seacamp 32 ACP. It best meets all of your needs; very high quality, flat design disappears in front pant pocket for deep concealed carry, rust free stainless steel, no tell-tell cylinder bulge, double action only trigger pull and shoots high performance 32 ACPs such as Silvertips.

The market has spoken many times over. People want a handgun cartridge that offers a higher degree of power.

 

[strambo]

I think the bigger than NAA, but smaller than a J frame market is more interested in buying Keltec P3ATs and similar, not a revolver.

I don't get it myself, I'm on the opposite side of the spectum. I want to carry the largest gun (in practical terms, not a DE). I typically carry a P226. Other times a Kahr K9, which is still an all metal 9mm with a full grip. A pocket gun would have its place on rare occasions, but I think 380 with the best of the modern loads is the minimum.

 

[GEM]

NAA had a prototype 32 HR revolver - it was a horror. They mention revisiting it and haven't yet.

I have a 432. Six shots, very light - got it for a great price. It's standard snubby J size but easy to carry.

The reviews of that transparent Taurus 38 say it's a bear to shoot and inaccurate.

 

[Onward Allusion]

The market has spoken many times over. People want a handgun cartridge that offers a higher degree of power.

+P+ 25 ACP is possible. Recoil is not great due to the weight of the bullet. "+P" in 32 ACP from a Keltec P32 is milder than a 38 Special Wadcutter from a J-Frame. I know. I have done both.

I would have disagree with you regarding the market's demand. Case in point, NAA Mini's in 22LR and 22 Mag. The biggest downside to them is that they are single action and way on the small side to grip comfortably. On top of that, they are rimfire. If they were DA, grip would be less of an issue. It would be easier to just pull the trigger on something that sized than to cock the hammer and pull the trigger.

Also, keep in mind - For my purposes, this would be a backup piece or on some occasions a primary piece. For others, it would be a step up from 22LR.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think it is a highly questionable assumption that there are a significant number of revolver carriers that desire something smaller/lighter than a lightweight J frame,

If there is a market, and I suspect they're might be, members on this forum are unlikely to be representative of it.

The more likely buyer would be someone who had recently obtained a CCW permit, or simply wants a small, easily carried handgun and definitely isn’t “into guns.” In years past they were part of a market that bought smaller, lower powered revolvers or .25 pistols. Cartridge performance was way down on their list, and small size was at the top. Many of these individuals were women, or men buying for a lady in their life.

They were also popular with men who wanted a weapon that was small enough to drop into a pocket and not be detected and presented a minimum of hassle while doing so and/or being carried.

Today they’re isn’t much between the ultra-small single action/spur trigger .22/.22 Magnum revolvers and much larger S&W J-frame size snubbies. While these may satisfy the needs of some, it doesn’t mean that they are the ideal for everyone. Also the recent introduction of very compact pistols chambered in .380 or 9mm aren’t the answer for those who are wary of them because they are too complicated, or find the recoil to be too much for confort.

 

[Dain Bramage]

However if you are truly committed to the 32 there are plenty of S&W top break revolvers in very good condition that meet your criteria.

This.

I just bought an S&W 3rd Model DA in .38 S&W. The gun has a worn nickel finish, but is functionally tight. The gun shoots 3" groups at 25 yards with Magtech 146 gr. LRN, which is amazing considering the vestigial sights. The grip basically disappears in my hand, and even with the 3-1/2" barrel is not difficult to conceal. Bicycle gun versions with even shorter barrels are available. The gun is a joy to shoot, and the action has a familial feel connecting it to my modern J-Frames. I could carry it if I chose to, and not feel under-armed.

 

[Old Fuff]

Do be careful. Most of those S&W top-break pocket revolvers were made for black powder cartridges, and not proofed for smokeless ammunition.

Also the internal lockwork contains a lot of small parts and delicate springs, and if anything breaks you may have a hard and expensive time getting it fixed. The internals were mostly hand fitted to each individual gun, and “drop in” assembly was unknown.

Last but not least, if they are still intact the hard rubber stocks are valuable in themselves, but with age prone to easily crack or chip.

 

[Onward Allusion]

The internals were mostly hand fitted to each individual gun, and “drop in” assembly was unknown.

You ain't kidding! Even GRIPS needed fitting!!! A different cylinder or hand? Forget about it unless you have a tiny diamond file set on hand.

 

[Old Fuff]

Today this may be hard to believe, but until fairly recently (looking at the long picture) both Smith & Wesson and Colt individually fitted the stocks on each revolver and serial numbered them to be sure that a particular set of stocks got back on the right gun during final assembly.

Nope... Neither do that anymore.

Except possibly Colt's Single Action Army.