why not a bullpup?

[Rodfac]

Probably not germane to a home defense weapon discussion...but I find any and all bullpups ugly beyond words...and life's too short to put up with an ugly gun...YMMv, of course, and beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder...Rod

 

[12Bravo20]

Almost got a ps90 years back but the ammo rotates 90 degrees as it feeds just seemed slightly complex? Like every other firearm feeds bullets up that one feeds down and rotates. Ehh less complex fire arms would be more reliable in my opinion

I had an AR57 upper that used P90 magazines and never had any feeding issues with it.

 

[tarosean]

But both the VHS and the Tavor are battle proven rifles.

So is the AUG. I still see those routinely used around the world.

 

[silicosys4]

Ugly,
Poor ergonomics,
awkward reloads
impossible to get a good trigger

and my biggest pet peeve,
standard rifles are almost invariably muzzle heavy and want to point at the ground. Bullpups are almost invariably butt heavy and want to point at your face. The degree varies by design but its universal among the bullpups i've handled and I don't like it.

 

[Capybara]

Short OAL with a full length barrel are a bullpups only real advantage over a conventional rifle,
although I do admire the engineering and design that go into many of them.

Lots of disadvantages:
1. Generally lousy triggers because of the linkage
2. Placing your face directly onto a 30,000-60,000 psi explosion
3. Awkward, slower magazine changes
4. On some pups, proprietary magazines
5. On most, they are heavier than they should be
6. Most have a stupidly long LOP
7. Bullpup specific accessories, in general, seem to be priced astronomically higher than equivalent AR accessories.
8. Questionable overall ergonomics, although this varies from model to model
9. Most Bullpup rifles are in the $1,600 and up range when they are mostly less capable than an $800 AR.

I own the Smith & Wesson M&P 12 bullpump shotgun and I like it. I live in California where SBS and SBRs are not allowed
so I can legally own this 26.5" OAL shotgun here that is very short for HD in my three story townhouse that is mostly narrow stairways and landings.
My Beretta 1301 Tactical is a full 10" longer, which makes it clunky to maneuver with in my home. So the Bullpump made a lot of sense for it's use.

As far as rifles, I like the AUG, I really liked the features of the Springfield Hellion but talked myself out of it because in California, the OAL on all rifles must be 30" or longer
so owning a bullpup rifle here means neutering it by adding barrel length to make it at least 30" long so what's the point? Weird that I can have my short OAL shotgun here
but not a rifle? Also, the LOP on the Hellion is like 18.5"?!

To me, Bullpup rifles are what you buy when you are bored with your ARs and just want a fun range toy. They're cool but not that practical. Unlike Rodfac,
I kind of find the looks of the bullpups to be intriguing and interesting. Not necessarily beautiful but the AUG and FS2000, you can't deny they are not eye catching and
interesting design language.

 

[Rodfac]

Well, I've already stated my prime objection: Bullpups are invariably ugly, but as other posters have pointed out, there other annoying characteristics.

While probably trending towards thread drift, I'll add the following.

Here's my idea of a beautiful & superbly accurate military rifle....this one is a National Match M-1903A1 from the 1931 batch sent to Camp Perry for that year's matches. It's numbered, dated and has been reviewed by the Marine and Army armorers at Camp Perry back in 2007, the last year that I shot the matches. On sight-in day, that year, I managed a 92 slow fire at 600 with it using using Sierra 168's in '72 Nat'l Match brass.

I've owned it since '92. The 2nd pic, BTW, shows it with its O'hara Sight Protectors in place....

Drool away....those of you that appreciate a truly beautiful military rifle. Rod

​

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Price for me is what's keeping me away from bullpups. Outside of Kel-Tec, they are prohibitively expensive for a lot of people. I am wary of using such a firearm (or AR15 or AK) for home defense, not because of the rounds potentially going through the target, but for the optics of public opinion and some DA's that will go NUTS if you use one for home/self defense.

You’re going to purposefully handicap yourself for the chance of a critical jury? Do you also subscribe to the Biden advice that all you need is a double barrel shotgun? Just fire one barrel up into the air Jill…... If I could afford a M134 Minigun I’d put one in the house for defense. If your bullpup or AR is ”clean” and task oriented and doesn’t have suggestive obscenities engraved on the dust cover a good lawyer will make it understood you chose the best tool for the job. “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Remember you have to survive the encounter before you can be judged for it in a court of law.

 

[Capybara]

There are two things that hamper most bullpup designs. One is the trigger and the other is lack of ambidextrous use.

Most bullpup rifles have never been known for having good triggers. This is due to the linkages needed to make them work. Yes some are better than others but none of the will be as nice as a traditional design.

The majority of bullpup rifles will only eject rounds from the ride side of the rifle. This makes them 100% useless for shooting left hand. Newer bullpup designs include an ejection port on both sides and you can with them which helps. The problem there is trying to swap everything over from right hand to left hand ejection in the field.

The best ambidextrous design is the bullpup rifles that eject out the bottom. There is no need to swap parts that way. But you are still dealing with the mediocre to bad trigger pull inherent to the bullpup design.

The Springfield Hellion is completely and easily user interchangeable for lefties or normal (I'm just giving you a hard time) right handed shooters ;-) I'm not a lefty but every review I've seen they make a big deal about how easy it is to switch ejection sides.
Functionally, it's a pretty cool rifle. But it's heavy, LOP is ridiculously long and it's expensive.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Bullpups have been around for almost a century. Check out Brophy's book The Springfield Rifle. My main concern is having the action near your face and how a gun blows. It's always forward and in the case of a bullpup, right into the user's face.

Triggers have been mentioned but I suspect that with electronic ignition/activated sear, this could be overcome.

It does enjoy the advantage of being more compact and easier to use in confined or tight spaces.

Regardless of your choice, train, train, and then train some more until your actions don't require a mental process and is automatic.

 

[Dr T]

While I like rifles that are on the shorter side, bull pups have never particularly appealed to me. If something lets go in the receiver, I prefer that it not be right next to my face.

 

[Hunter 08]

You’re going to purposefully handicap yourself for the chance of a critical jury? Do you also subscribe to the Biden advice that all you need is a double barrel shotgun? Just fire one barrel up into the air Jill…... If I could afford a M134 Minigun I’d put one in the house for defense. If your bullpup or AR is ”clean” and task oriented and doesn’t have suggestive obscenities engraved on the dust cover a good lawyer will make it understood you chose the best tool for the job. “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”. Remember you have to survive the encounter before you can be judged for it in a court of law.

Those are fair points. Nebraska is weird so could go either way.

 

[mongoslow]

This is my keltec ks7 beside my H&R pardner pump ( Remington 870 clone) the barrels ar both 18.5", the ks7 holds 8 rounds versus 6 for the H&R, it handles much tighter and faster in close quarters than the H&R does also...same principle will apply for a Hellion/ X95 Tavor vs a 16" AR, my 8.5" 300BO has the same basic footprint as the KS7 but those short barrels are very loud in 5.56 and the velocity penalty is huge compared to the bullpup....yeah I'm a weirdo that likes the bullpup philosophy of course what do I know I also like Scout rifles lol

 

[mshootnit]

so I am thinking what we need is not just a bullpup automatic rifle, but one utilizing three geometrically opposed barrel sleeves encompassed by carbon, and situated within one round carbon fiber barrel tube, and functioning as a rotating electric cannon. The Li battery would be in the buttstock and ammo links to be worn by the user.
Heres some bullpups:


And it is continued tyranny by the British that we do not have examples of the L85 to enjoy

 

[Crosshair]

I do wonder, if everyone here had grown up shooting bullpups instead of traditional rifles, would they feel differently?

If that were the case, would a traditional rifle design be looked down on and called ergonomically unfriendly because they were so long and front heavy?

That's a very good question. We see people claim that ARs are ergonomic despite a charging handle design that literally no other design uses, makes optics mounting complicated, and a significant aftermarket industry that exists to overcome it.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Those are fair points. Nebraska is weird so could go either way.

Nebraska is weird. I moved up here from Kansas for a job and was pretty surprised by the pistol purchasing permit and every time I joked with the guy behind the counter about it they looked at my like I had a third eyeball when I said Kansas has no such restrictions. If you can pass a background check you can purchase a handgun.

Edit: I would like to apologize for getting off on a tangent in the bullpup thread.

 

[rizbunk77]

Nebraska is weird. I moved up here from Kansas for a job and was pretty surprised by the pistol purchasing permit and every time I joked with the guy behind the counter about it they looked at my like I had a third eyeball when I said Kansas has no such restrictions. If you can pass a background check you can purchase a handgun.

Edit: I would like to apologize for getting off on a tangent in the bullpup thread.

The nebraska permit, once it is obtained, allows a long gun purchaser to bypass background check for each individual purchase. So it is actually a convenience not available in KS apparently. And yes, off topic.

 

[M1key]

 

[3Crows]

Bullpups have been around for almost a century.

Triggers have been mentioned but I suspect that with electronic ignition/activated sear, this could be overcome.

Anything electronic in a gun or ammunition that requires batteries, wires, solar cells, chips, capacitors, finger print readers, AI, cellular connection, digital readouts, menus, interfaces, Bluetooth, wifi, updating, downloading, GPS or any of that ilk is a hard STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Crosshair]

The Walther 22lr bullpup didnt look bad either but I am not sure why those were discontinued from production.

1. Very loud for the shooter due to high ejection port noise. Hearing protection is mandatory with them.

2. Your right ear gets peppered with fouling and unburned powder from the ejection port.

They were just not very pleasant rifles to shoot.

 

[Hunter 08]

View attachment 1133181

Bear Grylls would be proud.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

They always struck me as one of these "Why don't they make?" and "Let's see if we can do this" ideas. As Jeff Cooper would say "An ingenious solution to a non-existent problem." I prefer my rifle to have a little reach on them, and if I am going to use a firearm that looks like a raygun I want it to actually BE a raygun. Home defense ? Jam your long arm-or handgun-into the face or midsection of a home invader, you'll get their attention PDQ, if they grab the barrel-squeeze the trigger.'Yes, I don't like the ejection port so close to my right eye.

 

[wesmonster]

I think AUG is the best example of a bullpup, 5.56 out of a LONG barrel in a short overall package makes sense.

I'll also agree I've tried some horrible triggers on bullpups, and mag changes can be awkward.

But SBRs and braced pistols offer some good alternatives with a familiar mag forward setup.

I dropped a Hi Point 4595 18" carbine in a High Tower bullpup stock and to me it was an improvement and the trigger linkage was as good as the factory 4595 trigger. HP carbines aren't light so bringing that center of mass closer feels better.
But I've also not seen any bullpup that doesn't do what my 14.5" AR (16" with a pinned flash hider) with the stock fully collapsed.

 

[tarosean]

My main concern is having the action near your face and how a gun blows.

If something lets go in the receiver, I prefer that it not be right next to my face.

How often have we seen this happen though? Especially in todays instant media posts/news.

 

[benEzra]

Are mag changes with bullpups done with the support hand, or shooting hand?

With the support hand, like so:



The mag release mechanics are obviously unique to that particular rifle, but the hand positioning would apply to pretty much any other bullpup with the magazine at the bottom rear, like an AUG or RDB.

 

[Hunter 08]

How often have we seen this happen though? Especially in todays instant media posts/news.

I mean if your running "Bubba' Special" handloads a Bullpup will self-disassemble in your face. But so would any other rifle. Jack wagon not paying attention and hand loaded rifle rounds with pistol powder, any rifle will more than like explode.

Tampered ammo is what caused the RN50 to blow up on Scott and that is a solid built rifle. The fear because a rifle is going to blow up in your face because it's a bullpup, should not be that much of a hindrance...a properly assembled rifle will not blow up unless something unforeseen happens such as bad ammo. Usually comes down to user error from assembly.