Why Not a "Linkless" 1911?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by schmeky, Mar 14, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. schmeky

    schmeky Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,194
    Location:
    West Monroe, Louisiana
    Since most everything is linkless in the auto world, I wonder why no one has built a "new & improved" linkless 1911?
     
  2. USMCDK

    USMCDK Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    620
    Location:
    New England
    WHAT???? I must really be a NOOB to the gun world.. WTH do you mean by "Linkless?"
     
  3. Titus

    Titus Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Messages:
    653
  4. 98C5

    98C5 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    SW Va
  5. HisSoldier

    HisSoldier Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,324
    Without the features of a 1911 it's not a 1911.
     
  6. hksw

    hksw Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    4,157
    Location:
    OH
    The Springfield Omega linkless was a Peters Stahl upper gun (still available in Europe last I looked). Muli-caliber. It is an open linkless like a SIG, HK, Glock, etc. Not a closed linkless like a CZ (-type including BREN).
     
  7. hksw

    hksw Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    4,157
    Location:
    OH
  8. Mastiff

    Mastiff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    It happened a long time ago. The Star Super Series introduced in 1946. They kept making them till 1983. I just purchased one, and I am now going to sell my 1911. That is something I never thought I'd say. It is that much better.

    From 9mm Largo:

    There were 8 changes made to the basic pistol designs to make them Super models.

    1. addition of a loaded chamber indicator
    2. addition of a full magazine indicator in the magazine
    3. sights were changed by the addition of white inlay to improve target acquisition in low light
    4. recoil spring was made captive on the spring guide
    5. swinging barrel link (M1911 style) was replaced with a cam system (Browning Hi-Power style)
    6. addition of a quick takedown lever to the right side
    7. magazine safety was changed
    8. trigger system was changed
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    32,331
    Location:
    Florence, Alabama
    In the first place, if it didn't have a link, it wouldn't be a real 1911.

    In the second place, it has been done repeatedly.
    Peters Stahl Omega
    Springfield 10mm with SA slide but P.S. type lockup.
    Briley
    Jarvis (I had one, so disappointing that I went to the trouble to reconvert it.)
    Storm Lake, I think.

    Others as mentioned above.
     
  10. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    11,109
    I've heard that the link is a weak point in the design. However, how much of a "weak link" is it? There are a number of seemingly odd choices in the 1911 design (barrel bushings, plunger tube, two-piece guide rods, etc), but in general, they don't seem to cause enough problems to be worth "fixing". I take it the link is one of those, but I'm really curious about what could go wrong with it. Parts breakage?

    Mike
     
  11. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Another one of those rumors that someone uttered...without understanding what it does...and it spread like wildfire.

    Assuming that all is within spec, and the barrel is neither standing on nor being stopped by the link instead of the vertical impact surface...the link is under very little stress and/or wear.

    The link's only function is in getting the barrel lugs disengaged from the slide's lugs far enough and in time for the slide to pass over the barrel without contact. Once it's done that, it's function is over.

    I've pulled links from worn-out WW1-era barrels...installed them on new barrels...and years and many thousands of rounds later, the guns are still humming along happily, oblivious to the fact that they're functioning on a "worn-out" link.

    Then, there's one of my favorites about Browning "correcting" the design flaws of the 1911 with the High-Power...and one of those corrections included doing away with the link.

    Browning didn't "correct" anything. He gave the paying customer what he asked for...and actually had little to do with the final product. He died while working on the gun, several years before it was finished.
     
  12. Warren

    Warren Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    2,454
    Location:
    Northern California
    Hey Tuner,

    I think it was in the P210 thread that you mentioned that all the little bits in the design that people today do not like were there to make the gun easier to maintain in the field by folks who may not have had much experience with that sort of thing and who might not have access to a full load of tools or other resources to get them through a repair on a different design.

    That is a powerful concept that we uptime people tend to push aside in our high-tech world. The simpler something is the easier it is going to be for non-specialists to understand and fix.

    Not that I'm a Luddite or anything.
     
  13. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Yep. Simple is good...
     
  14. jfh

    jfh Member.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Messages:
    4,898
    Location:
    Maiden Rock, WI
    I've got an Omega, in 10mm. It works fine.

    But...some how or other, the original guide rod broke--right at the notch for the slide stop, of course. SA said they'd never heard of such a thing. I will note that the guide rod they sent me was the new improved version, however, with a strap welded on over stop notch....

    And, I do remain bemused at how to tweak this kind of locking.

    It was a solution in search of a problem, as 1911Tuner basically points out above.

    Jim H.
     
  15. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,907
    Location:
    Arizona
    The main advantage of a cammed barrel design is that the shape of the cam surfaces can be changed to increase or decrease dwell time (the time the barrel and slide are locked together). This could be important in a design that was offered in various barrel lengths and cartridges (Glock for example).

    So why doesn’t someone make a 1911 style pistol with this feature? It could for example slow down slide velocity in sub-compact guns – at least in theory.

    The answer is because market surveys show that potential gun buyers want their 1911 style pistol to be exactly the way Browning designed it. Change anything and they won’t touch it. The same is true of Colt’s version of their Single Action Army revolver. It MUST be the same as when they were first introduced in 1873 (or mostly so).

    In my view Tuner is right, at least up to a point. When one is dealing with Commander and Government length pistols there is no reason to get rid of the link. If one is determine to cut the slide/barrel to under 4 inches, or use high-end 10mm Auto loads in a platform never intended for such pressures a cammed barrel might be better.
     
  16. Spartacus451

    Spartacus451 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    MA
    Does the link introducing all these requirements make the gun more difficult/expensive to manufacture and assemble? If that is the case then that would make it a weak point in the design. We can't depend on having only one (or a few) perfect example of a design because then everyone would have to share ;-)

    Turning the question around, what advantages does the link introduce?
     
  17. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Not that I'm aware of.

    Every design has a "weak link" without exception.
     
  18. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,907
    Location:
    Arizona
    I think that Tuner is all wrong about this. :what:

    If Browning’s design were any good it would be possible to make the pistol out of spec, and still have it work no matter what. Obviously this is what today’s makers need and buyers have come to accept. So far as part interchangeability is concerned, hundreds of thousands of pistols were made during World War Two that where completely interchangeable, but it’s not fair to expect that today. :rolleyes:

    Browning simply didn’t understand that good technology requires that the product be assembled by trained monkeys pitching parts across the room with no thought about whether they do or don’t fit. This modern principal of gun building has been enhanced by abandoning the stupid and expensive practice of test firing each gun. Not to worry. If the maker doesn’t discover any flaws the buyer ultimately will. :banghead:

    It is regrettable we can’t make J.M.B. go back to the drawing board and start over. :uhoh:
     
  19. AgentOrange

    AgentOrange Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    110
    i own a springfield omega 10mm with the dual extractor top end, and it functions flawlessly and is accurate as any handgun can be i think. it shoots 1 hole 5 shot groups at 40 yards without any issues.

    i also have another complete prefect condition stahl upper in 10mm, 6" ported model for sale if anyones interested. drops right on any 1911 frame without any issues. i bought the extra as i was going to buy a single stack frame and build another 10MM but never got around to it.

    id take $475 for it, or maybe trade for a complete decent quality 45 acp upper.
     
  20. trickyasafox

    trickyasafox Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    upstate NY go to school in WNY
    USMCDK

    the link they are referring to is a part on the bottom of the barrel in the 1911 design. It looks almost like the top off a soda can laid on its side. The slide release goes through the hole for proper assembly.

    here is a link to a picture of a barrel and link:
    http://media.photobucket.com/image/1911%20barrel/ddr223/1911barrel-2.jpg
     
  21. SupraBo

    SupraBo Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    56
    1911Tuner,

    I could be wrong but I was under the impression that JB had this in the first 1911 design, It more difficult to make/cheaper to go with the link.

    Either way it didn’t matter I guess.

    Beau
    :confused:
     
  22. Travlin

    Travlin Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Messages:
    80
    In case you are not aware of it, Browning's earlier designed pistol had a second link at the muzzle end of the barrel. He probably got the idea from the "disappearing" artillery used in fortifications and battleships that dropped down behind their protection after firing. He later realized that with a proper barrel bushing that link could be eliminated.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice