Why not cock a DA revolver?

[Smaug]

I can see this from both points of view. I asked the same question a while back, after watching Dirty Harry. When he was in a gun fight and had the time, he cocked it first, and rarely missed.

To my way of thinking, the intellectual reasons for cocking the gun can go out the window in an exciting situation. Not for calm, cool, experienced folks like M2 Carbine, and Dirty Harry (who also cocked his revolver when he was expecting trouble) but I could sure see my wife getting nervous and touching a round off accidentally!

Here's an example that is indirectly related. I was riding my scooter one night. I was an experienced motorcyclist who knew and had practiced proper braking techniques. But that one night when I was out riding and a deer suddenly appeared in front of me, adreneline gave me superhuman strength and hard-wired reflexes that were faster than my brain. I locked up the front tire and went tumbling down the road at 45 mph. I was soooo mad at myself for doing that. (I came out OK thanks to my full face helmet, by the way, just minor road rash and a wrecked scooter)

Can't you see the same sort of reflexive, adreneline-pumped situation if you go to investigate a sound in the night?

Also, it is worth pointing out that a typical trigger on a non-target 1911 is quite a bit heavier than a DA revolver in SA. Both of my S&W revolvers have a VERY light DA trigger. I breaks in ounces, not pounds of pressure. One is gunsmithed, one is stock. My 1911 (Para GI Expert) had probably a 5.5 lb. pull. Not something that would trip from a mere touch.

I can see doing it either way. But if you're going to cock it, you'd better make damned sure to keep your finger out of the trigger loop until you're REALLY ready to fire. If you don't need to shoot, make sure you're not so shakey that you can't decock it safely, or put it down for later.

With an auto, if it is cocked, loaded, and with the safety off, and has no decocking feature, one can always drop the mag and rack the slide to make it safe prior to decocking. On a DA revolver it isn't an option to open the cylinder until the gun is decocked.

So I think an experienced and cool-headed person could handle it. It is just questionable if it is worth all the risk, when any self defense shoot will probably be at less than 7 yards.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Anybody who would accidentally shoot because the hammer's cocked really shouldn't be carrying.

You mean at a shooting range? If so, I see your point. But we're talking about a gunfight. If you feel you can accurately predict folks' behavior under that kind of stress, well, there's an opinion. The uncocked trigger makes an ND less likely, as I said, in an uncertain environment.

ONE dominant reason why the 1911 has been so very popular for so very long, and the safety ain't it

the SA trigger is

So...that's why there are so many companies manufacturing the 1911s without safeties, and so many gunsmiths getting rich by removing 1911 safeties?

There are a lot of folks who deactivate safeties (whether that's wise or not is a different matter): 1911 grip safeties, High Power mag safeties, etc. Show me, even among those folks, the ones that are removing the 1911 external safety on a SD gun.

we had the option of cocking before taking the shot in that type of situation.

You also had your trainers, your department training protocol, and your fellow officers to testify that having that option was your force's SOP. And you had pre-paid lawyers available to argue that point, if it came up; and the deep pocket of your employer to take care of any civil claim, if you lost.

(I know that you said that those who cocked their pistols did NOT have good accuracy. I just was pointing out that an officer using an approved techinique he has trained on is different from a private citizen using it. And I think it is a very unusual department for which cocking the hammer is an approved and taught technique.)

Yeah, I'd shoot him from my hidden position in a heartbeat.

Do what you want. I was just noting (aside and OT) that in fact the guy didn't shoot (couldn't), and he lived. Me, I'd prefer that outcome to shooting someone for several reasons; YMMV.

assuming a 1 v. 1 engagement

Your gunfight is not going to be what you want it to be; it'll be what it is.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Being able to cock the hammer is a nice option to have if you need it.
I always use the thumb of my support hand.

 

[451 Detonics]

1983, Dade County Florida. Luis Alvarez, a sworn officer, shoots Nevell Johnson Jr in a video arcade. He admitted and witnesses stated he cocked his duty revolver manually with his thumb. The gun fired fatally wounding Johnson. On the scene Alverez made the statement that it was an AD that occurred when his arm was jostled. Later when a 22 pistol was found in Johnson's underwear he recanted that story and stated he fired when the suspect made a sudden movement towards a gun that Alverez wasn't even aware of.

If that 22 had not been present then it is likely Alverez would have been convicted of manslaughter at the minimum, perhaps even homicide. They managed to keep the original statement out of the courtroom and 12 white jurors found him not guilty in under two hours which included a dinner break.

Cocking a DA revolver is ok at the range but not in a self defense scenario. It is a fact that nationwide AD's dropped dramatically when many departments went to DAO revolvers.

As far as accuracy I do better shooting DA than SA...because I practice shooting DA. If you spend all your practice time at the range shooting SA you need to learn DA shooting, it may save your butt in court...not to mention in an emergency it is much faster.

 

[hq]

Cocking a DA revolver is ok at the range but not in a self defense scenario.

Having defended myself with a gun (no shots fired) in a real-life situation, I second that.

When the proverbial excrement hits the fan, you're all nerves, adrenaline is pumping and you're highly alert. Fortunately I was carrying a H&K P7 that has a grip-activated squeeze cocking system. I found my trigger finger shaking enough that it could've caused an AD, just being near (not inside) the trigger guard instead of pressed firmly against the side of the frame.

Sometimes I carry a single action semiauto, but if something happens and I need to draw it, I make absolutely sure that the safety is on and it stays that way. Revolvers with no safety... DON'T COCK IT.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Luis Alvarez

Famous case. However, from what I've read:

1. Ofc. Alvarez claims he saw and put his hand on a bulge in Mr. Johnson's sweater at the beginning of the encounter, and Johnson admitted that he was carrying a gun right then.
2. Alvarez never "admitted" he cocked the gun; he has always maintained that he did not.
3. Of the perhaps 35 witnesses to the shooting, only one said Alvarez cocked the gun. (And the jury apparently did not believe him.)
4. Alvarez did say that his gun had "gone off" when someone bumped his arm. He said that immediately after the shooting, when radioing for back-up and ambulance. However, he told investigators on the scene that no one had bumped his arm, and that he did not know why he said otherwise.
5. The State Prosecutor for Dade County at the time was a certain Janet Reno, who made the decision to prosecute Alvarez; it is not clear that her decision was based solely on the merits of the case.
6. Alvarez's intial statement over the radio, plus the standard DA action of his S&W 64, allowed the prosecutor to charge him with manslaughter. The trial took 8 weeks: the longest trial in FL history at that time. The acquittal took two hours; it is speculated it only took that long, because the jurors wanted to finish dinner. They did.
7. After the shooting but before the trial, all Miami-issued revolvers were changed to DAO.

We weren't there, so we can't say with certainty what really happened; but given the verdict, these are the established facts of the case.

 

[Warp]

Why is anyone left to testify that you cocked the gun?

(Edited-assuming a 1 v. 1 engagement)

1. Roughly 80% of those shot by a handgun survive.

2. There are often witnesses.

3. These days there are often cameras.

 

[Warp]

Do what you want. I was just noting (aside and OT) that in fact the guy didn't shoot (couldn't), and he lived. Me, I'd prefer that outcome to shooting someone for several reasons; YMMV.

Agreed. If I had a crystal ball and knew that the guy was not going to find me and was not going to shoot/kill me I would wait it out. But you cannot possibly 'know' that until after the fact. At the time what you know is that a man with a rifle is hunting you down to shoot/kill you.

 

[Loosedhorse]

But you cannot possibly 'know' that until after the fact.

Agree completely. Other things you cannot possibly know:

• That if you choose to shoot, you will hit (even with that SA trigger pull!)
• That if you hit, you will stop him
• That if you shoot, with or without a hit, you will survive
• That if you shoot, he will not be around to tell to police a very different story from yours: about how he knew you were out there somewhere with a gun, just waiting to shoot him, and he was afraid to go anywhere, because you might see him
• That if you do survive, you will not be prosecuted

Let's expand a bit more on the last: when he first came into view, did you shoot right away? If not, why not--weren't you under "immediate threat"? If you waited, was it--coldly--for a better shot? If he turned his back, giving you a shot, did you shoot him in the back? If you did, well, that'll take some explaining. Of you waited for a "more defensible shot", well, why couldn't you wait some more?

Like I said, there's lots of reasons I'd prefer not to shoot, and that--even with a gun--if I am dealt the option of waiting unseen, I will play that card for as long as I can. But that doesn't have to be the answer for everyone.

 

[Rexster]

Those who plan to cock with the support hand thumb should keep in mind that a dynamic situation may be over before there is time to do that, or still in progress but with the defender hopelessly behind the curve.

Though the article was written in reference to DA/SA autos, the principles are the same; google "Fear Not the DA Shot" by Ernest Langdon. It is readily searchable; not difficult to find on-line.

To be clear, I acknowledge the possibility that I just MIGHT cock a DA weapon's hammer someday during a gunfight, but believe strongly in training to use DA for the wide range of defensive scenarios.

FWIW, I must carry a duty pistol selected from a list of authorized .40 DA autos. (We buy our own.)
My choice is the SIG P229, and I can carry either the DA/SA or DAK version. Though I own both
types, my choice for the duty rig, and most off-the-clock concealed carry, is DAK, a form of DA-
only. No bureaucrat chose DAK for me; it was approved as an option ten years after the DA/SA
P229 was made an authorized duty pistol.

The officers who first carried DAK at my PD were some of the guys who do narc raids; they train to a higher level with handguns than even the SWAT guys, and shoot more bad guys per officer than any other division in the PD. These are our most serious gunfighters. They have the same choices of duty pistols as the rest of us, but as they qual under their own trainers, the ones who liked DAK just went ahead and started using DAK without specific approval from regular firearms training unit.

After hearing from a narc friend about DAK, and reading about it from trustworthy sources such as John Farnam, I started carrying DAK before it was officially approved, making sure I only qual'ed and practiced at the firearms training range when certain "cool" supervisors and trainers were present.

I apologize for detouring into autos, but wanted to make the point of how strongly I believe in shooting DA. The DAK is the closest thing to a sweet K-frame trigger pull I have experienced in any
auto, anyway. Life is good.

 

[Warp]

Agree completely. Other things you cannot possibly know:

That if you choose to shoot, you will hit (even with that SA trigger pull!)
That if you hit, you will stop him
That if you shoot, with or without a hit, you will survive
That if you shoot, he will not be around to tell to police a very different story from yours: about how he knew you were out there somewhere with a gun, just waiting to shoot him, and he was afraid to go anywhere, because you might see him
That if you do survive, you will not be prosecuted

Let's expand a bit more on the last: when he first came into view, did you shoot right away? If not, why not--weren't you under "immediate threat"? If you waited, was it--coldly--for a better shot? If he turned his back, giving you a shot, did you shoot him in the back? If you did, well, that'll take some explaining. Of you waited for a "more defensible shot", well, why couldn't you wait some more?

Like I said, there's lots of reasons I'd prefer not to shoot, and that--even with a gun--if I am dealt the option of waiting unseen, I will play that card for as long as I can. But that doesn't have to be the answer for everyone.

It's pretty simple. I shot the man with a rifle who was trying to kill me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Though the article was written in reference to DA/SA autos, the principles are the same; google "Fear Not the DA Shot" by Ernest Langdon. It is readily searchable; not difficult to find on-line.

It is especially easy to find as it is the second of the instructional links in my signature

 

[Loosedhorse]

It's pretty simple. I shot the man with a rifle who was trying to kill me.

...and then he shot me dead.

Would make a nice epitaph. And simple.

 

[Jurist]

Double action

Who's going to know weather or not that you cocked the hammer?.

 

[zxcvbob]

I pretty much instinctively shoot single-action because I've always used SA revolvers. I'm having to train myself to shoot DA. I'm almost there now.

Surprisingly, DA is more accurate. (I did not expect that at all.)

If you cock a revolver, how are you going to decock it safely if you *dont* have to shoot? Especially when you're all amped-up on adrenaline.

 

[eqlzr]

Once I was at a range and heard this very loud rapid fire shooting coming from way at the other end of the table. I thought, "Holy Cow, that guy must have a huge semi-auto pistol of some kind."

I walk down to the other end, and there's this skinny little old man with long silvery gray hair and a bushy bristly gray handlebar mustache. He was shooting.....

a Colt .45 Single Action Army revolver.

And he was putting all his shots in the bullseye at about 17 yards.

 

[Warp]

Who's going to know whether or not you cocked the hammer?

1. Roughly 80% of those shot by a handgun survive.

2. There are often witnesses.

3. These days there are often cameras.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Who's going to know weather or not that you cocked the hammer?.

Somehow I would expect you'd want to tell the truth, so that you can avail yourself of the justifications of your action entailed in a claim of self-defense

 

[oldfool]

For the record, I did not advocate, nor have I ever advocated, the removal of a safety from any firearm, long or short, irrespective of type/make/model/caliber.
I really do not know why someone would read all that into my comment

the topic here is SA vs DA mode shooting
the 1911 is very popular (still) for many good reasons, including how "shootable" they are for many people
when you do shoot one (actually fire a round, you know), the safety is off, and the gun fires off a SA trigger, first shot, every shot

I believe that the 1911 SA trigger (relatively short, light, and crisp) is the primary reason why so many people like them so well, and have for so very long

OP - "The 1911 ... has a similarly light trigger pull to a cocked revolver. Why don't DA revolver shooters train to cock off the draw the way 1911 shooters unsafe off the draw?"

The subject here being revolvers, of course, comparisons with SA autos being introduced in the OP, but re: other pistolas re: DA/SA action autoloaders, there are people who do advocate cocking the DA/SA auto for 1st shot, so as to always fire every round in same mode vs. mix-n-match; whether or not that is best option with that type of gun, I have no personal opinion, but it would depend at least in some part on how the gun is carried (you know, proper use of a safety)

PS
any comment on S&W ILS being moot, it is not a carry safety, and that is a completely different topic

 

[Loosedhorse]

I really do not know why someone would read all that into my comment

I didn't. But you made the comparison of the 1911 to a DA revolver that's cocked. They are not equivalent. If the 1911 had its external safety removed, it'd be closer--but it doesn't come that way because light tigger WITH safety is the system on a 1911. I think it is that combination that makes the 1911 popular for SD: if it was light trigger no safety (like a cocked revolver), I don't think it would do as well. Perhaps you do.

A 1911 is fundamentally unlike a cocked DA revolver, both because of the 1911's safety (which can be quickly switched on or off) and because a SA pistol MUST be cocked in order to fire. If you use an analogy to "make a point," I think it's reasonable that someone point out that the analogy has problems.

There's a reason the 1911s are popular? Of course, just like there's a reason that cocked DA revolvers are not popular for SD.

 

[woad_yurt]

How about practicing to use the gun as it was designed to be used? I have a suspicion that all of the posts from folks about shooting a DA revolver in SA have something to do with not spending the time to learn a proper DA trigger pull. It takes time, ammo and a bit o' practice.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Why don't DA revolver shooters train to cock off the draw the way 1911 shooters unsafe off the draw?

M1911 shooters don't disengage the safety as they draw. They disengage the safety when they decide to shoot. That can happen as they draw, or it can happen later.

 

[Mike1234567]

For a SD handgun I prefer: DA for revolver or SA/DA (or thumb safety) for pistol. I know from experience that my finger may twitch due to adrenaline oversaturation. For me, increased chance of accidental discharge is NOT worth the negligable gain in accuracy. YMMV.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I know from experience that my finger may twitch due to adrenaline oversaturation.

That's why, if you haven't made the decision to shoot immediately, you present an M1911 with the safety engaged, strong thumb on the safety lock, and trigger finger indexed.

If you suddenly decide to shoot, you simply close your hand, wiping off the safety and pressing the trigger in a single movement.

 

[Harley Quinn]

LAPD had quite a few shootings because of DA revolvers being put into SA mode in the field...

They went to DA only in the Model 15-3 S&W (70s)...It helped reduce the ND/ADs...

If a revolver is carried CCW... I believe it is good to have it DA only...

The Semi-Auto Pistol is now, main line of defense for them... I would think any revolver carried (back up/off duty) has to still be DA only...

Regards