Why not doubles for grizzly protection?

[Matt304]

If you were genuinely interested to "know the truth" you would order Wieland's book and begin your own learning.

Look, books aside, you're missing the big point of my rant which seems quite obvious.

I can't figure out how individually, the parts and labor can add up on paper. Whatever giant price you choose to use for the gun, I just can't see it being justified, other than to simply target rich men. I understand there are things out there which target rich people, and there is a giant demand for them, from rich people. But to the average Joe who tries to break it down and figure out where all of that money is being spent, it doesn't make sense. Is that really close-minded or unjustifiable because I question such a simple thing?

To put it more simply than that, what is the difference between the $50,000 double gun and the $100,000 double gun, a $2000 piece of wood? More engraving? Does that really equate to the added $50,000? If those physical differences seem perfectly acceptable at that price rate, chances are you are rich man. That may be the only difference in the way we think about this.

 

[oneounceload]

Most people out there looking for a double rifle want one to take to Africa. People who are going hunting in Africa are rich (most of the time). Rich people aren't looking for a bargain on a rifle when their trip might cost $20000+ dollars (I know you can go for less). I have only seen a few double rifles in person and all of them had top quality walnut stock and were heavily engraved. There is no market for a budget double rifle.

HB

I have a friend who has gone to Africa 13 times in the last 20-25 years.....each trip, NOT including taxidermy fees, has been over 50,000.....add an elephant hunt and taxidermy, double that cost......he prefers a 416 Rem bolt action for big game.....his various PH's ALL use a double.....from 470NE and up.....there must be a reason.......

 

[PJR]

Look, books aside, you're missing the big point of my rant which seems quite obvious.

No your point is quite obvious. You can't figure something out but have nevertheless reached certain dimissive conclusions.

When given a place where you might find that knowledge you brush it aside.

Does that really equate to the added $50,000? If those physical differences seem perfectly acceptable at that price rate, chances are you are rich man. That may be the only difference in the way we think about this.

Again you are jumping to ill-informed conclusions. I don't know if I'm rich compared to you and you don't know either.

What I do know however is that is little point having a discussion such as this with someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

just look at the websites!!!!!

copied from holland and holland's website

"If MichaelAngelo had a jackhammer, he would have used it to great advantage, and his finished sculptures would still be and look the same beautiful works of art". This is equally true for traditional gun manufacturing. While machines were always used when possible, for example, for rifling the barrels, today we use the most modern CNC equipment and CAD design features. Yet, this is combined with all the traditional gun making methods. Filed actions to great precision using the "oil black" method, hand struck barrels, handshaped stocks and checkering, etc. Depending on the model of gun, from 650 man hours to well over 1250 man hours will be involved making it. No part of a Holland & Holland gun is interchangeable, it is always made especially for the gun down to the smallest pin!

so lets call it 1000 hours for a HAND BUILT rifle, and they charge $70,000
$70 per hour of labor and from that $70 take insurance, taxes, premium materials, shop fees, the cost of the support staff, tools....its not just a rifle. Someone poured their soul into wood and metal. To be frank I don't see how Holland can sell so cheap. This is not injection molded garbage. You can't see why an hour of a skilled professional's time including shop fees and business fees is worth $70??
you do realize every single gun is custom affair, no 2 are a like. In fact when you order you have to be measured, and the gun is built to you

 

[Cosmoline]

The price difference is about the "art," not the mechanics. It does not cost $50,000+ dollars or anything close to that to regulate barrels. The Italian-made Kodiak Mk. IV's and ML versions are reasonably well regulated and cost a fraction of what the Britishers charge. There are even Russian doubles that work fine and German drillings that, while expensive, are nowhere near as pricy as custom English guns. They're not in the nitro express loadings, but the necessity and even practicality of cartridges of that magnitude is highly questionable for anything this side of a bull elephant. The "poor American's" .45-70, cranked up, will drop a Cape Buff. Likewise, the old Continental favorite 9.3mm chamberings will handle pretty much anything on the planet with less fuss and bother than a nitro express. Not to mention less cost per cartridge.

What you're buying with an English doublegun is the same thing you're buying with a classic Rolls-Royce. They were also hand-built English machines that really didn't do anything a factory made car couldn't do for much cheaper. But those cars weren't Rolls. And one of my Kodiaks is not a Holland & Holland.

So is a double gun good for bear protection? Sure. But would any sane human take a fine English doublegun out into the jungles of bear country? NO HE WOULD NOT. At least not without hiring a strong man to carry the thing wrapped in layers of protective leather, which defeats the purpose of having one to begin with. If you want to take a double into that country I could see taking a Mk IV or if you want to spend a little more a used Ulm-made Krieghoff. They ain't English, but they kill just fine. You can knock more off the price by getting one in over/under configuration.

If you look at the PH's who still carry doubles instead of Czech mausers, my bet is you're not going to find them hauling the high end engraved types. They're likely to be German made or hand-me-downs that have seen many winters.

 

[Matt304]

No your point is quite obvious. You can't figure something out but have nevertheless reached certain dimissive conclusions.

When given a place where you might find that knowledge you brush it aside.

Does that really equate to the added $50,000? If those physical differences seem perfectly acceptable at that price rate, chances are you are rich man. That may be the only difference in the way we think about this.

Again you are jumping to ill-informed conclusions. I don't know if I'm rich compared to you and you don't know either.

What I do know however is that is little point having a discussion such as this with someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Oh, give it a break PJR. I asked questions, and the best you can do is say "go read a book". Gee, you sound like a really intelligent internet educator. For your information, I have researched countless websites on African safari rifles, and not once have I been able to reach any solid conclusions covering the labor involved or details describing where their true value is derived. No big deal, so I simply asked here.

You blame me for not reaching the same conclusions as you. The funny thing is, there is obvious hypocritical thinking on your part. You claim me as being "close-minded", when you yourself aren't open-minded enough to realize how people like me may arrive at such conclusions. Instead of battering the curiosity in my mind, like it's wrong or something, maybe you could take the kind approach and offer a little of your own intellect. Or not, it's your decision what kind of a poster you would like to come off as. You make that intention obvious enough.

And maybe your book does contain that info, but when we have people here willing to share it for free, unlike yourself, where is the sense in more unneeded spending to find a simple answer?

You don't need to try and "top" that with some more crap either, PJR. Just let it be and enough is enough. Take the high road, if you will. I'm done here.

There are people in here who have actually said something of merit. To those people, I thank, because they have helped me to step back a few steps and view the larger picture. It makes more sense to me now.

H&R building a rifle for 1000 hours, at $70/hour sounds a lot more reasonable to me. I had never expected a rifle build to really involve that many hours of labor.

Thanks guys...I won't trash this thread anymore than I have. Sorry I butted in with all of this crap you surely don't want to see.

 

[plumberroy]

Matt there is a real simple solution for your rant if you think a double rifle is to much just don't buy one Because I don't think something is worth the money I just don't buy it if you think the same item is worth the money It is your money
Now back to the original question ... because there aren't many double shotguns configured to be a good slug gun A high quality gun set up like a stoeger condor outback except with double triggers would be idea maybe with rifled choke tubes shooting at least brenneke magnums or better yet dixie slugs hard cast slugs would be ideal

From a standing start, a grizzly will reach a person in about 2 seconds from 100 feet (if not obstructed or injured). So if you shoot the bear at the start of the charge, you should be able to get off 3 shots at 100 feet

please don't take this personally but thinking like that will get you killed,when you are messing with dangerous game. You have to be thinking missing is not an option ,not I've got 2 more shot

Given the choice of high quality high powered rifle that I just got yesterday or my H&R 20 gauge slug gun with my hand loads or my H&R single shot 45/70 I'll take my singles any day of the week...Why ,because I have carried a H&R single shot for years they are like an extention of my arm ,I can bing it to my shoulder and is pointing where I am looking.. it is familiar, part of me and I know missing is not an option

By the way my 20 ga. slug handloads are a 500 grain solid, hard cast , heat treated, .625 dia .660 long moving 1200fps
Roy

 

[PJR]

For your information, I have researched countless websites on African safari rifles, and not once have I been able to reach any solid conclusions covering the labor involved or details describing where their true value is derived. No big deal, so I simply asked here.

Reread your first post in this thread. You didn't simply ask. You'd reached solid conclusions.

I feel that essentially, double rifle manufacturers are ripping people off. Does anyone in their right mind really believe there is $40,000, or $80,000 worth of labor or parts on a fancy double rifle? I won't buy that belief, ever. I think it is downright absurd, actually.

What is odd though is that despite your researching "countless websites" you didn't stumble across Holland and Holland, one of the classic double rifle makers, from which the quote about the hours needed to make a fine gun was taken.

Or perhaps HeymUSA where there is an excellent pictorial on the steps to make a double rifle. You should really take a look. At the very least it might help you appreciate that an engraver is somewhat different than a tattoo artist.

http://www.heymusa.com/heym_tech.htm

Why is it that a shotgun manufacturer can produce a fancy double barrel model in which the cost can be held around $1000, but when someone makes a double rifle, magically that number must be set to $20,000+?

Yet despite "countless websites" you didn't find a gun under $20,000. Heym, Blaser, Chapuis, Merkel and Krieghoff can all provide double rifles under that amount even with the current strength of the euro. Incidentally, those makers also make fancy double shotguns. None selling for around $1,000 however.

Should you wish to be patriotic Butch Searcy, an American maker, can provide a double rifle starting at $12,000. Not cheap but well under your magic number.

And finally young Matt304 let me offer some heartfelt advice. Before you start giving lectures to anyone about sharing intellect, taking the high road or coming off as a certain "kind of poster" perhaps you would take a moment to revisit the excerpt of your initial post which is listed above.

To be frank they don't reflect an approach or attitude that would prompt many people to take the time to try and offer a little education. That might be worth keeping in mind.

And with that I will decamp this thread but not before offering apologies to PlayMaker for my involvement in getting it off the original question.

 

[Skoghund]

Many years ago i visited the Holland & Holland factory. After the visit i understood why they cost what they cost. Craftmanship costs money.
There are plenty of very good double rifles and shotguns made in Europe that are more reasonably priced. My local gun shop must have 50 double rifles on there racks . not just in big calibres.

You get what you pay for and the cost is relative to what you can afford or want.


Heym engraving on my Heym-Ruger. They don't do that with a tatooists pen

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

wow check out the screw head. Almost makes ya think twice about using a butter knife to unscrew it

 

[win71]

Now there is a Gentleman

And with that I will decamp this thread but not before offering apologies to PlayMaker for my involvement in getting it off the original question.

And his entire post was comprised of concise accurate information.
There are a lot of subjects and a lot of people out there with opinions. Every once in a while, if your lucky, you will have the good fortune to run into one that actually knows what he's talking about. That is the time when it's best to listen.

 

[Jody Johnson]

From what I've read...and picked up in conversations...Virginian had it 'bout right. The double sidelock was, mechanically anyway, thought of as two SS rifles joined together. With two separate locks, it was believed that at least one would work, particularly with external hammers.

These weapons were almost always used for close-in dangerous game.

I'd guess the same thought might be applied...at least in theory... to the SG as any mechanical device can fail...even an expensive one.

 

[younganddumb]

if you want to hunt with a double I suggest two thinks you should have

1)a quick draw

2)a desert eagel with extra clips

 

[Cosmoline]

If two rounds from a double won't stop it, what makes you think a Deagle will? Or that you will be able to draw the Deagle?

 

[Matt-J2]

I think you're supposed to hand the Desert Eagle to the bear, that way it's a bit quicker and less painful for you.

 

[rbernie]