Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why not more companies making slim DA/SA hammer fired pistols?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Orion8472, Apr 11, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,742
    Location:
    CAAZ
    Its because DA/SA is a solution to a problem that never existed.

    There. I said it.

    Somebody had to. :evil:
     
  2. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,681
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    I'm glad Baskin Robbins had a different take on diversity.
     
  3. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,263
    Location:
    SouthEastern FL
    Sam1911 contributes:

    I like your analogies, Sam. My first 4x4 truck still sits outside, carbureted engine, stick shift, and crouch-in-the-mud-to-twist-em hubs and all. I bought it in January of 1987, six months before acquiring my first handgun. I ran some errands in it today, and still drive it several times a week.

    Next to it is my current daily driver, also a 4x4, but 10 years newer.
     
  4. Jaywalker

    Jaywalker Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Texas
    DA/SA was a reasonable approach for those who didn't care to manipulate a safety under stress, so the "non-existent problem" issue was always wrong - there was a problem and the DA/SA was a good solution at the time.

    Really good clockwork watches were also good solutions for telling time until quartz and circuit boards replaced them, at least for efficiency and cost. I have a Swiss watch, and I also have a revolver and a DA/SA Beretta, but for pure function the newer tech is more efficient, cheaper, and more accurate, at least for my purposes. For admiring worksmanship, however, polished steel and DA/SA can't be beaten.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  5. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2005
    Messages:
    8,120
    Location:
    Greeley, CO
    Market demand is all it is. If a bunch of people were hollering for da/sa guns, by george we would have a plethora of those guns. Clearly, such is not the case.
     
  6. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,889
    So, bottom line is, . . . . . . most people want the striker fire mechanism. Therefore, no manufacturer is going to make a new DA/SA thin pistol.

    I guess I'll just have to live with the [eventual] 9mm XDs and be happy about it.
     
  7. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,631
    Location:
    Arizona
    On guns like Kahr, KelTec and some other, the firing pin spring is only partially compressed and even if it were to let go there is not enough energy to ignite the round.

    On the Kahr type firing system the trigger must be pulled to increase the firing pin spring compression enough to fire, so it is every bit as safe as a DA/SA and IMO superior because every pull is the same and the firing mechanism is much simpler when compared to DA/SA system.
     
  8. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,889
    I had a Kahr CW9 at one time, . . . but couldn't get used to the DAO trigger. Also, because the trigger was fairly easy to pull, . . . I constantly "worried" about something snagging the trigger when I was holstering it. I know, . . . I know, . . . get a better holster. :eek: Mostly, I just never warmed up to the trigger.
     
  9. Jaywalker

    Jaywalker Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Texas
    Different strokes for different folks. I like the Kahr NYPD trigger better than any other firearm/trigger combination, including better than the Kahr Elite trigger.

    Possibly part of that's the feel of my K9 and where the trigger falls under my finger, but it could also be a generational thing. I've noticed that folks who like the Glock-type trigger release tend to be younger than the folks who like the Kahr-type release, maybe because the Kahr-NYPD is closer to a revolver trigger, though it beats the best revolver double action I've ever owned.
     
  10. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,889
    I suppose it COULD also be that I purchased the "bottom of the line" CW series. The K9 metal framed Kahrs really feel awesome in the hand. I have to give them that.
     
  11. ThePenguinKnight

    ThePenguinKnight Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    There are a few polymer framed DA/SA hammer guns, but they're rare. See the Taurus 800 series. I don't know of any compacts or single stack hammer fired DA/SA guns, though.

    DA is not limited to a hammer fired gun. See the Walther P99AS, wich is a striker fired DA/SA weapon with a decocker; great weapon, and I love my S&W rendition of it. Also look at pistols such as the Taurus 709, which has a backup DA ability for second strikes; kinda gimicky, and no way to access the DA except in the case of a failure to fire, but nonetheless it can fire DA.

    People these days are mostly liking the same-every-time trigger pulls of the Glock-esque striker system. The market demands it, so that's what it is supplying. Even some of the hammer fired guns lately have been designed partially pre-cocked to emulate the Glock-esque trigger action (see the Walther PPX). Heavy and/or long triggers are popular in the pocket guns, or short/light with a safety; just not much demand for some combination, so not much is being supplied.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  12. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,889
    It isn't carry size, . . . but I may have to look for a Walther P99 AS. I like those. Too bad the Walther PPS never had that type of setup.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  13. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    5,404
    Location:
    TX
    Sig SP2022, FN FNX

    are another two, not necessarily thin thou
     
  14. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,889
    Yes, plenty options. . . . unless "thin" is a requirement. It could very well be the case that a DA/SA mechanism can only BE made so thin, thus nothing considered XDs/M&P Shield type of thin.
     
  15. ThePenguinKnight

    ThePenguinKnight Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    226
    The mechanism can be made thin. See the Taurus 709 mentioned above. It has an action that is functionally identical to a DA/SA action, but with no means to decock the striker, it runs SA till there is a failure. The only reason it isn't a DA/SA is because they designed it to appeal to a different group of folks, the ones who like short/light (ish, mine is surprisingly heavy) and a safety, instead of short/light with a long/heavy first shot and a decocker.

    The only reason it doesn't exist is that the manufacturers haven't tried to target that market. Write a letter and make some calls, and if enough people join you they might take enough interest to start looking that way (if they haven't already).
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  16. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    5,404
    Location:
    TX
    PPK is thinner than that (.8 vs .92) and a true DA/SA
     
  17. Jaywalker

    Jaywalker Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Texas
    Also, FWIW, hand size and strength had something to do with the obsolescence of DA/SA handguns. Many of the DA strokes were made with very long trigger pulls, probably for leverage to reduce the amount of apparent resistance in the pull. The problem for many of us was that made for pull lengths that our fingers couldn't reach - the current CZ75, for instance. Others had shorter pulls, like the 1970s PPK/s, for instance, that was short but very, very stiff. The striker models today are more available to people with smaller hands, and that's well over half the population.
     
  18. PedalBiker

    PedalBiker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Colorado
    I shoot striker fired pistols better and I have more trigger time on my DA/SA guns.
     
  19. Cocked & Locked
    • Contributing Member

    Cocked & Locked Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,650
    Location:
    Silver Hill, NC
    Stylin'

    What's in style is what sells. What sells is what's in style.

    Plastic is in style and most folks want to be in style. With that our world becomes plastic...pistols, gunstocks, car bumpers & dashboards, power tools, vinyl siding, bathtubs, sinks, etc.

    With plastic comes cheaper to produce striker fired hand guns with stamped steel internal parts. The market selling prices are not usually cheaper though because the consumers want to be in style and are willing to pay up to be so.

    The plastic striker fired guns with plastic magazines are stuffed into plastic holsters and everybody is in style. :cool:

    The ones out of style are the older codgers like myself that prefer metal frame SA/DA and SA automatics or revolvers...all with hammers. :scrutiny:

    And that is OK.
     
  20. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,742
    Location:
    CAAZ
    I was kidding about the 'non-existent problem'. Different strokes for different folks.

    As an example, I would rather flick off the safety and have a short SA type trigger than worry about having to deal with a looooong DA pull.

    Other people, want no manual safety AND the short SA type pull (such as a glock) because they dont want to deal with looong DA pull or a manual saftey.

    Personally, I dont want a DA/SA on any more of my guns than the SR22 and Bersa 22 I have.
     
  21. Weevil

    Weevil Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Colorado

    The Kel-Tecs are hammer fired.
     
  22. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,631
    Location:
    Arizona
    Oops, your right!
     
  23. Billy Shears

    Billy Shears Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    1,003
    Companies have to market what sells the best -- what there is the most demand for. The big problem with the DA/SA trigger was not only the "crunchenticker" aspect, as Jeff Cooper called it, of having a long, heavy pull, followed by a short, light pull, it was the fact that the double action trigger often had a very long stroke, and the trigger, in DA mode, was so far forward that shooters with smaller hands had a difficult time reaching it while still maintaining a proper grip. Some pistols, like the CZ75, allowed a shooter to carry cocked & locked and get around this problem, but other guns did not.

    The modern, striker-fired pistol gives a better balance of characteristics that appeals to a larger segment of the shooting world. It allows a lower bore axis, which minimizes muzzle climb and decreases recovery time between shots; it allows a consistent trigger pull, from the first shot to subsequent shots; it doesn't require an inordinately long trigger pull, which would be detrimental to shooters with smaller hands; it's a simple mechanism, with relatively few moving parts, which not only means cheaper manufacture, it also means ease of maintenance by police and other armorers; the mechanism is such that there is no need for manual safeties or decocking levers, which not only increases simplicity of operation (and therefore training), but it also still further reduces the number of parts needing to be made for the gun. This combination of features has broad appeal, and modern, striker-fired pistols have been brought to such a high level of reliability, that they don't give up anything to other mechanisms in that area. In other words, since they work just as reliably, and are cheaper to make, and a bit easier and more intuitive for most people to use than the traditional, hammer-fired DA/SA designs, they have largely replaced that type of pistol. I don't see any likelihood of this changing in the foreseeable future. There's just not much demand, and thus no economic incentive for any company to produce a new hammer-fired, DA/SA in today's market. What market there is, is served well enough by the designs that are already out there.
     
  24. el Godfather

    el Godfather Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2012
    Messages:
    1,686
    CZ Shadow the new slim line
     
  25. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,631
    Location:
    Arizona
    It's almost a full inch and a half thick! Not real fat but hardly what I would call slim
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page