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Discussion in 'Legal' started by Vermont Carry, Jun 13, 2006.

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  1. Vermont Carry

    Vermont Carry member

    Dec 10, 2005
    NRA has a long history of not trying to repeal gun bans/gun registration. They seem to consider bans and registration that get passed, to be "settled law" the second it's signed by a president/governor. Before someone brings up CCW laws, those laws actually set carry bans IN STONE (unless you have paid the incredibly high fees to get the permission permit from mommy government of course). I think every state that has a "shall issue" law STILL has their statewide BAN on concealed carry IN FULL FORCE. I would rather have 5 or 6 states with "Vermont/Alaska" carry (or 2nd amendment carry) than 30+ states that give out insulting "permits" FOR A VERY HIGH FEE in most states (not to mention the expiration date). Almost no gun owners remember that it was Ronald Reagan who signed California's carry BAN. I point that out because we need to fight smarter, and stop just looking at the surface of things like NRA.

    Then there is the fact that NRA considered the NFA of 1934 to be allegedly "constitutional." Then there is the fact that NRA did NOT consider a vote for the 1968 gun CONTROL act to be an anti gun vote :eek: . Then there is how NRA looked the other way in 1986 when the 2nd amendment was killed for good. To make matters worse, NRA doesn't even mention the 1986 ban on any of their websites or literature (that I have ever been able to find- seriously, if anyone has evidence of NRA talking about the 1986 ban, please post a link).

    If you need more recent evidence of betrayal, NRA allowed the "assault weapons ban" to pass with the bogus claim that they would "strip it out during conference committee," which of course never happened.

    I believe that NRA is effectively the brady campaign in different form. Sure, they put on a good ACT, but if substance matters to you, the NRA isn't at all what it seems.

    Many gun owners believe that NRA is "doing good" by cleaning up these CCW laws that have been passed in recent years. Extending the insulting expiration date (I didn't know my rights had an expiration date) by ONE WHOLE YEAR, or making reciprocal agreements, doesn't scratch the SURFACE of what needs to be done. I have YET to see NRA try to get rid of the expiration dates or the outrageously high fees (usually 3 to 5 TIMES as high as the fee for a driver's license). We've usually only seen states cut the fees for "veterans" which is immoral because it creates a "preferred" class of citizen.

    Bottom line, if you truly support the 2nd amendment, you're going to have to do it as AN INDIVIDUAL and not as part of a group, especially if that group's initials are NRA. GOA seems to be worth supporting, but IT'S A GROUP, and groups won't restore the 2nd amendment, INDIVIDUALS WILL!

    Restore your local militia and support good and LOCAL pro gun groups, and maybe a 5 dollar bill to GOA once in a while. My largest local "pro gun" group has the phrase "Shooting Sports" in it's name, it gets little done, and is an NRA affiliate, so I support a smaller local group. I am very encouraged by groups like "Ohioans For Concealed Carry." Every state needs active gun owners to create local groups like OFCC.
  2. dav

    dav Member

    Dec 31, 2002
    San Diego, PRK
  3. Mannlicher

    Mannlicher Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    North Central Florida and Miami Florida
    I think folks who cast the NRA as the enemy of 2nd Ammendment are dangerous to the effort. Despite the twisting of facts here, the NRA is the best friend gun owners have.
  4. Barbara

    Barbara Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    So what do you think about the 17th Amendment?
  5. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

    May 26, 2004
    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Here we go with the NRA bashing. Look it's called being REALISTIC. Do you realize the chances of getting ANY law repealed in our government? The NRA has done a great job at making the most with what we have to work with. You need to face facts that the great majority of people in this country don't agree with most of us on this message board in that all gun laws should be lifted. Hell I don't even agree that ALL gun laws should be lifted, I don't see anything wrong with going through a 5 minute background check when buying a firearm (I'm sure I'll hear it for that), and I really don't see a big problem with requiring a CCW to carry concealed to make sure people know the law.

    As for concealed carry laws, you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Only 5 or 6 states with real concealed carry as opposed to 40 where the government MUST give you a permit if you request it??? I'll take 40 over 6 anyday of the week and twice on Sundays. As for your "very high" prices lets get real. Most states are under $100 and are for multiple years. How much do you pay every year for your driver's license renewal? Mine is $36 per year.

    Your assertion that the 2nd Amendment won't be won back through groups is absolutely laughable. To have ANY power or sway in this country you need strength in numbers. What do actually think individuals can do by themselves? Let me give you a clue....a whole lotta nothin.

    Let the flames begin :neener:
  6. shermacman

    shermacman Member

    Dec 30, 2002
    I couldn't disagree more.
    The NRA is not a "pure" as GOAL, but the two cards need to be played. The NRA has taken a far more mainstream approach, GOAL is idiomatic. The NRA has been successful in breaking many anti-gun laws. It has been successful in weakening (OK, "compromising") many others. But they have helped bend public opinion, slowly and step-by-step. I would like a pure 2nd Amendment, but this is a Constitutional Republic and votes happen. Only the NRA could have countered my two state Senators, John Fraud Kerry (D-VietCong) and Teddy the K (D-UI).

    I belong to both, proudly.
  7. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    United Socialist States of Obama
    The NRA is responsible for the San Fransisco gun ban being struck down a couple of days ago.
  8. Valkman

    Valkman Member

    Jul 31, 2003
    North Las Vegas, NV
    Then you are wrong. As the previous poster pointed out, they just got the SF ban overturned. Didn't see Brady there fighting against it.

    The GOA cannot be as effective as the NRA, and the same for SAF. They're great and I belong to them but they do their best when teamed with the NRA as they're too small to do it on their own.

    I love everyone bitching about repealing all the gun laws - the NRA is not the government and no serious politician will get far advocating repeal of gun laws. Bush has repealed nothing yet passed nothing new and you may not like it but that's as good as it's going to get.
  9. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

    Nov 8, 2004
    Spring Hill, Florida
    Sometimes in conservative land, it is hard to appreciate how much farther we have to go. The NRA is an effective organization because they are incrementalists. They boil the frog a little more each year and the results slowly get better. We have gone from what seemed like an inevitable loss to what now seems like a frustratingly slow victory. England took 100 years to go from RKBA to knife bans and emasculation. We may well take decades to return from the AWB to the vision of the Founders.

    Remember that society takes time to adjust to new temperatures- legal machine guns may be unthinkable today, but carrying guns in public was unthinkable 20 years ago. Now the concept of armed citizens defending themselves without waiting for government assistance has spread nearly everywhere in the nation. Gun ownership, shooting sports and self defense are not in danger of being extinguished.

    Today the concept of abolishing the ATF is unthinkable to many. But the first attempts to peel the rug back at the edges have begun. If we cant get away with a little nibble, a wholesale chucking out the window wont work. Gotta start somewhere.

    Today the concept of overturning gun laws on 2nd amendment grounds seems like a pipe dream. But 20 years of effort have produced a scholarly consensus that the 2nd does guarantee an individual right. The past few generations of law students are being taught different things than earlier generations. Eventually these people will become judges and prominent lawyers (indeed with Alito and Roberts, we see it beginning already). The time for the 2nd will come soon IMO. Next 5-10 years.

    About CCW permits:
    having to ask permission to carry a handgun may seem odious to some, but I would argue that it is NECESSARY. Why necessary? Because the cost and the minor hassle keeps out poor and unmotivated people- the underclass that makes up the bulk of the criminal population. The rareness of criminal offense in CCW holders is an incredibly powerful tool when arguing on behalf of liberalized carry. I cannot emphasize it enough. And this all-gain-no-pain version of bearing arms is a prime tool for raising the temperature on the frog. Soccer moms arent panicked by hidden guns, which allows the arming of society to proceed at a pace unhindered by complaints or even awareness of it happening. Decades go by and suddenly the antis find themselves cornered by voluminous statistics that paint public gun bearers in a very positive light.
  10. TheBluesMan

    TheBluesMan Senior Member

    Dec 20, 2002
    From "The Five-Minute Handbook"
    This thread does nothing to help our cause. If you can't build up your favorite organization without tearing down others, please do it elsewhere. If, however, you want to re-post by trumpeting what is right about certain pro-gun organizations, feel free.

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