Why open carry?

[shadowalker]

Just some good hearted questions, it seems like most your points apply to having a firearm at all.

Also, I would like to note that my belief is that 99.9% of human beings have a genuine moral fiber.

I agree most people are not direct threats most of the time, the 1% of people who will kill you for you for no reason is the reason I carry. Also if things turn bad and it comes down to survival good people will do what is needed to survive.

Like I said before, most people are good hearted folks, and if we start arming good hearted folks, it only takes a few "I just couldn't pull the trigger!" before the criminals call our bluff.

This would apply to anyone with a firearm, even those who just have bed side guns and don't carry at all, who should be allowed to have guns?

Further who is bluffing? If my weapon is pointed at someone it is because they pose a direct and immediate threat, I believe them to have the ability, opportunity and intent to cause me or someone else great physical harm, there is no bluff.

Not too mention how worthless a pistol is to an unarmed criminal. Just because you see a man pick up a kid and run off with her doesn't mean he isn't her father

A pistol isn't worthless against an unarmed criminal, there is disparity of force, size differences, and certain crimes that authorize lethal force such as rape. In the state of Idaho it doesn't say the bad guy has to be armed with anything, only that a reasonable person would believe that great physical harm or death is imminent.

Whether to engage or not affects everyone, it affects concealed carry people, LEO, even unarmed bystanders. A good training class and reviewing the laws gives a lot more perspective on if and when to intervene in a third party situation.

Another argument is for the folks who don't want to open carry. When criminals know that 10% of the folks in your state have a concealed carry permit, they're going to think "which one of these guys is armed?" before they do their dirty deeds. If we all start open carrying, and we manage to get 10% involvement, all they have to do is look around for folks with holsters before they kidnap a child from a playground. With more concealed carry, there's no way for them to know that a TEACHER doesn't have a pistol.

This is security through obscurity which is proven to be a falsity. OC and CC aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not going to rely on the BG not knowing if I'm armed or not to protect me, even with 10% CCW there is still a 90% chance the person isn't armed, pretty good odds for the bad guy.

 

[JesseL]

It's interesting to note that in nature, most creatures that are equipped with deadly defensive tools aren't shy about making it known (think brightly colored insects, fish, amphibians, and mushrooms).

There may be a lesson there about the value of a visible deterrent reducing the need for (and risks of) using your weapon.

 

[bulgron]

I think that if there must be permits, there should only be carry permits, and let the individual decide if they want to OC or CC. The big reason why is because of "printing" laws and other stupidity such as the california statute that says a weapon is concealed if any portion of it is concealed. These kind of things are just designed to harass legal firearm owners.

In most of the country, law abiding private citizens have the legal right to walk around armed. The wailing and fearful in America need to just get over their silly little panic attack on that issue.

 

[kurtmax]

It's interesting to note that in nature, most creatures that are equipped with deadly defensive tools aren't shy about making it known (think brightly colored insects, fish, amphibians, and mushrooms).

There may be a lesson there about the value of a visible deterrent reducing the need for (and risks of) using your weapon.

I've never thought of this before. Good point.

 

[Mainsail]

it's all a matter of how the existing RCWs and city ordinances are interpreted and enforced. Unfortunately, if one persists in attempting open carry in W.WA (regrettably over-populated by far too many Birkenstock-wearing, latte-sipping fools who still haven't removed the Kerry bumperstickers from their Volvos) one should be prepared for the inevitable intervention by the local gendarmerie.

Washington has full preemption over firearms laws. That certainly doesn’t mean that the police won’t try to enforce some preempted law, but it’s not likely. No city or county can ban firearms anywhere the state hasn’t already. There are several parks that are posted ‘No Firearms’ and even include a city or county code, but the police cannot enforce it. Several parks have removed the prohibition from their signs because of complaints. Every police officer I've spoken to so far knows OC is legal.

I still want to see someone in civilian clothing, no badge displayed, walk end to end through Pike Place Market at 2:00 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon with a Condition 1 1911 worn in a low-riding Western-style holster ... What was that old sci-fi B-movie with the young Steve McQueen where hundreds of folks ran screaming out of the theater on to the street? I could see that happening ...

Do you want to back this one up? If you supply the 1911 and holster, I’ll carry through Pike Place end to end twice. If the people don’t go running and screaming, I get to keep the gun. Deal?

 

[30 cal slob]

It's interesting to note that in nature, most creatures that are equipped with deadly defensive tools aren't shy about making it known (think brightly colored insects, fish, amphibians, and mushrooms).

There may be a lesson there about the value of a visible deterrent reducing the need for (and risks of) using your weapon.

Okay. That might explain why I've been OC'ing with my HK Mk23 Socom tucked into a Safariland thigh holster.

 

[JesseL]

Okay. That might explain why I've been OC'ing with my HK Mk23 Socom tucked into a Safariland thigh holster.

I saw a guy at the customer service counter of my local supermarket carrying a rig very much like that.

Some posters here might be surprised to learn that none of the other shoppers seemed to find him particularly remarkable, and nobody ran away screaming

 

[James T Thomas]

discretion is the better part of valor

I had been aware of the reasoning posted here; that it is a deterrant to agression.

Yes it is. However the usual agressor is most likely one who intends to black your eye, bloody your nose, or teach you a lesson.
Or perhaps, more serious, to rob you of your money and then flee aprehension.

At the top of the scale are the cold blooded ones, who when seeing you armed, are not impressed. They are ego maniacs in addition to killers, and will simply devise a way of ambushing you or even just to slay you "efficiently" and then rob you, and carry out their acts upon your family.
The killers Platt and Matix come to mind. They obtained some of their weapons from someone at a target range, who was open carrying and not cautious.

I wouldn't feel too smug about deterring some ruffian punks from assaulting me, while the dangerous ones can map out their plan -upon viewing my advertised and publically displayed firearm.

I'm not that afraid of standing up to some punk agressor that I'm willing to give the advantage away to the serious threats.

 

[JesseL]

At the top of the scale are the cold blooded ones, who when seeing you armed, are not impressed. They are ego maniacs in addition to killers, and will simply devise a way of ambushing you or even just to slay you "efficiently" and then rob you, and carry out their acts upon your family.

Someone that cunning is probably going to give himself every advantage he can and assume that even though he can't see it, you may be armed. If that's the case, who is to say that this predator isn't going to ambush you even if you're carrying concealed?

It seems to me that in this scenario, open vs. concealed is moot and the only thing that's really likely to improve your survival odds is situational awareness.

I had been aware of the reasoning posted here; that it is a deterrant to agression.

Yes it is. However the usual agressor is most likely one who intends to black your eye, bloody your nose, or teach you a lesson.
Or perhaps, more serious, to rob you of your money and then flee aprehension.

...

I wouldn't feel too smug about deterring some ruffian punks from assaulting me, while the dangerous ones can map out their plan -upon viewing my advertised and publically displayed firearm.

I'm not that afraid of standing up to some punk agressor that I'm willing to give the advantage away to the serious threats.

It sounds like you're depending on a different kind of physical intimidation or force to deal with the lesser threats that you're so casually dismissing. That won't work for everyone. Think about what you would do if you were a small woman with half the strength and body mass of a large man. Wouldn't you appreciate having a visible deterrent, rather than having to deal with being attacked my muggers and rapists, and then shooting them with a concealed handgun?

One last thing, are you actually trying to imply that people who open carry are cowardly, or was that unintentional?

 

[Mainsail]

…give the advantage away to the serious threats.

I think the advantage goes to open carry. I can draw my openly carried pistol considerably faster than I can from concealment. If you knew beforehand that you would be drawing your handgun when you entered the 7-11, you’d tuck your shirt in and carry openly, right? (Acknowledging that you wouldn’t knowingly enter a situation like that.)

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I would think you could draw a little bit faster if you didn't have to pull your shirt off your gun in the process

 

[Mainsail]

I would think you could draw a little bit faster if you didn't have to pull your shirt off your gun in the process

Exactly the point! What many are saying is that concealed carry in hot weather makes it difficult to effectively conceal your pistol. Some folks will carry on their ankle or in a bag (like the maxpedition) which is much slower.

 

[peacemaker45]

That's exactly why I don't go in for deep concealment. If you need a gun, the chances are very good that you're going to need it in a great big hurry. What I find goofy is that people will completely discard their carry rig, in favor of a competition rig for IDPA, etc. If it's not good enough for competition, where the only thing at stake is a ribbon, or a couple of bucks, why is it good enough to bet your life on?

When evaluating any given holster/gun/concealment combo, my numero uno consideration is whether or not I can get the gun into action quickly, and all other considerations are secondary.

~~~Mat

 

[James T Thomas]

reconsiderations

"JesseL:"

I have no way of knowing whether a person carrying openly is a coward, brave or in between. I am too busy with my life to be thinking about that anyway. It doesn't interest me.

Yes, you may be slain, showing or not, but the cold blooded ones will size you up before, even if briefly, and I would hope to be alert enough to recognize it and prepare. And of course by what you do and how you do it, you can preclude placing your self into a vunerable condition where you are easily eliminated. That just goes all the time. Whether or not you observe others around you or not.

The way my wording may sound to you may be what you read into it, or it may be my inability to write explicitly. I do try to say just what I mean.
And very seldom if ever do I imply by what I'm writing. I'm too old for that and have seen too much of life.

The small woman, someone ill, disabled, etc. can benefit from open carry, but I don't believe attacks upon the weak or percieved weak come out of the clear blue sky either. I think there is always or should I say most of the time some preliminary activity leading up to attack -where by the defender may "produce" a weapon to change some one's mind and stop short.
Many of the more experienced, very large, under the influence criminals would view the open carry by some one weaker as a challenge, and arrange their assault to surprise that person completely.

"Mainsul:" (That's pronouncement) I've never counted on the "fast draw," having been caught in too many ambushes -and survived them! Now, that was military experience, granted, but, I think the principle is the same.
The infamous FBI Firefight that I previously mentioned is an example. Those agents; it was by their own doing, became "caught" in the ambush, and even with superior numbers and great gun skills, they were in trouble.
You probably will never know "beforehand," but by alertness, you may be able to alter your course to your advantage even before going into action.

Saints be protecting you Irishman, it is faster if you don't have to pull your shirt of your gun, and then, it is even a little faster if you already have your gun in hand!

Do you actually think that you will be involved in a show down at High Noon type thing? That some perp is going for his piece right in front of you; after some sort of hot verbal exchange?
Gentlemen, if you come around a corner, go to your car in the dark parking lot, or exit your workplace to go home, and suddenly it's "stick 'em up!"
Then I would forget trying to beat him to the draw -he has already beaten you.
If he commences draw, or slaps leather -first, he has beaten you.

Jim

 

[JesseL]

Gentlemen, if you come around a corner, go to your car in the dark parking lot, or exit your workplace to go home, and suddenly it's "stick 'em up!"
Then I would forget trying to beat him to the draw -he has already beaten you.
If he commences draw, or slaps leather -first, he has beaten you.

You're not beaten 'till you're dead or you give up. In the situation you describe, the odds aren't good. It could be that a fast draw will make the difference on whether you are truly beaten.

 

[SJG26]

SIgh.....anyone with an opinion on my original query:
"for all of you the open carry-----OFTEN----how do you handle weapons retention and level 1-2-3 etc - or do you at all??"

 

[Fly320s]

SJG26,

I don't carry openly very often, but I do OC.

For retention, I use and open-top, contoured leather holster (Level 1?). I also have training in weapon retention.

 

[RPCVYemen]

In my head, I see no pro's to Open Carry a firearm in public except for getting America more accepting that guns aren't just for bad guys.

The other advantage is that you may get an opportunity to test your weapon retention skill!

I am sure that you train as intensely at weapon retention as you do at the other skills you need for SD. So you'll probably pass. Of course, the "not pass" grade on this test will be sort of a bummer ...

Mike

 

[fletcher]

I prefer to CC. However, I would like the OC option to be available during the 4-5 month stretch of heat we have here in the summer that makes full-size concealed carry a bit difficult.

 

[Tequila jake]

Open carry is not legal here in Texas, but I have a CHL and carry concealed where it is legal. However, I don't think I would carry openly here even if it were legal, for several reasons:

1. Depending on how you carry it, the gun and holster can get hung up on seat belts, chair arms, etc.

2. I carry in my front pants pocket and it's reasonably comfortable. Even with the same gun (either a S&W 642 or a Kahr PM9), I can't imagine any type of open carry that would be as comfortable.

3. Maybe carrying openly would dissuade a potential attacker from coming after you, or maybe it would persuade him to shoot you in the back and take your weapon as well as your wallet. And as was pointed out, if the bad guy comes at you with his gun already drawn, there's no way you can draw and fire before he shoots you. If I'm carrying concealed, I feel that a felon is less likely to shoot me because I don't represent a potential threat to him. I'll just give up my wallet, 'cause I never have enough money in it to risk my life over.

4. It has been so long here in Texas since private citizens have been allowed to carry openly that it would be years before all the LEOs would know it is legal. Therefore, I can envision being arrested, or at least questioned, by LEOs during the first few years it was legal. Even more likely is that anti-gunners or gun-fearers (is that a word?) would report me to LEOs.

My $.02 (and probably not worth that much....)


Tequila jake

 

[JesseL]

1. Depending on how you carry it, the gun and holster can get hung up on seat belts, chair arms, etc.

That hasn't been a problem for me.

2. I carry in my front pants pocket and it's reasonably comfortable. Even with the same gun (either a S&W 642 or a Kahr PM9), I can't imagine any type of open carry that would be as comfortable.

That's probably true for the guns you carry, but I like to carry something a little bigger and easier to shoot accurately.

3. Maybe carrying openly would dissuade a potential attacker from coming after you, or maybe it would persuade him to shoot you in the back and take your weapon as well as your wallet. And as was pointed out, if the bad guy comes at you with his gun already drawn, there's no way you can draw and fire before he shoots you. If I'm carrying concealed, I feel that a felon is less likely to shoot me because I don't represent a potential threat to him. I'll just give up my wallet, 'cause I never have enough money in it to risk my life over.

This doesn't seem to be a real problem. We've had mention in this thread of maybe two cases of this happening to people that were open carrying. I'd bet you could find at least that many examples of people being killed for their concealed piece too.

There is also the fact that even if you don't appear to be armed, a criminal may still consider you enough of a threat (as a witness) to be worth killing. I don't want to trust my life to the mercy of a guy who's already decided to rob me.

4. It has been so long here in Texas since private citizens have been allowed to carry openly that it would be years before all the LEOs would know it is legal. Therefore, I can envision being arrested, or at least questioned, by LEOs during the first few years it was legal. Even more likely is that anti-gunners or gun-fearers (is that a word?) would report me to LEOs.

Although it's never been a problem here in AZ, I think rights are worth fighting for. Thank goodness all the great civil rights leaders of the past didn't let the fear of being questioned or arrested by the police stop them.

 

[Mainsail]

Maybe carrying openly would dissuade a potential attacker from coming after you, or maybe it would persuade him to shoot you in the back and take your weapon as well as your wallet.

Here’s the one example cited in this thread. Pay attention to the time of day the incident took place. Again, for all the hand wringing, it simply isn’t enough of a threat to persuade me that’s it’s any more realistic than a zombie invasion.

Man robbed in the Centreville area

About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.

The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

 

[WayneConrad]

Weapon Retention

Weapon Retention is easy: I don't purposefully close with bad guys. Cops get close to bad guys on purpose--that's why weapon retention is such an issue for them. With rare exceptions, it is not for the rest of us.

Weapon retention is a canard. It's not a serious risk unless you're arresting people.

 

[kurtmax]

Awareness of your surroundings and things like Cooper's color code will be much more important than the retention features of your holster....

 

[NickEllis]

I only ever concealed carried when I lived a bit further out east. It just seemed like the thing to do when I didn't want to draw attention to myself in common company.

However, since moving a bit further west, and having not had the opportunity to get my CCW, I've been very grateful for the right to carry openly. Otherwise, every time I moved (which has been many recently!) I would be disarmed until my CC course was taken, and the papers processed, and I received my CC license. The last several times I've moved, that would mean no CC for me at all, in the past several years!

Open carry is a great way to have a firearm on you without worrying about many of the other restrictions/licensing issues; if its legal, just grab a gun and go.